voyttek's layout

Re: voyttek's layout

Postby j p » Fri Jun 20, 2014 4:33 am

The options are
1. extend the layout to have space for 2 single crossovers
2. shorten the (already short) station tracks
3. make a double crossover with a diamond in the middle on the bridge.
Guess what is the most suitable for voyttek :)
It is not a DB layout, it is PKP!
(it is called crossover according to NMRA http://www.nmra.org/member/sites/default/files/datasheets/Trackwrk/d3c.PDF)

The double crossover with the diamond in the middle is still used even now when there is no space for 2 single crossovers. The theme of the layout is probably something from the past. 3-way turnouts are much more rare, but even those still exist.
Some double crossovers from Copenhagen:
https://www.google.com/maps/@55.6696538,12.5655927,125m/data=!3m1!1e3
https://www.google.com/maps/@55.6683471,12.5647715,124m/data=!3m1!1e3
It is not limited only to big cities, there is a double crossover even in my hometown: https://www.google.dk/maps/@56.490763,8.6083371,241m/data=!3m1!1e3 - and here are also 2 lines entering the station (as on voyttek's layout)

I have never been in Poland, but it took me only 2 minutes to find some of them in Warsaw!
https://www.google.dk/maps/@52.2191108,20.9621845,66m/data=!3m1!1e3
And another one!
https://www.google.dk/maps/@52.2076814,20.9194298,66m/data=!3m1!1e3
This one has even double slip turnouts instead of the simple ones, it is a 4-track double crossover!

Re. width of the bridges: that is true. One of the bridges (Prague) with turnouts which I posted earlier was built in 19th century for a double track, but it has space enough only for a single track now. It had double track until 1990s but it was allowed to have there only one train at a time due to insufficient clearance.
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Re: voyttek's layout

Postby LVG1 » Fri Jun 20, 2014 10:12 am

j p wrote:The double crossover with the diamond in the middle is still used even now when there is no space for 2 single crossovers.

I've never denied that. They do still exist.
I only said, they're rare. So it would look strange to have too many of them.

j p wrote:The options are
1. extend the layout to have space for 2 single crossovers
2. shorten the (already short) station tracks
3. make a double crossover with a diamond in the middle on the bridge.
Guess what is the most suitable for voyttek :)

Of course, compromises will have to be made. You will hardly find a situation in life without the necessity of compromises.
But I wonder why you're so keen on the alignment of through tracks on the one hand and are willing to compromise on other details on the other hand. In my eyes, turnouts on a non-suitably constructed bridge (which never happens at the prototype) are clearly more evident than a through track leading over the bended way of a turnout (which sometimes happens at the prototype).
Let's limit ourselves to making suggestions and let voyttek decide which compromises he's willing to make.

I'll continue to pore over further possibilities to find solutions with less compromises and, may be, even without them.

j p wrote:...
2. shorten the (already short) station tracks
...

Iron Law of model railroading:
Tracks are ALWAYS too short!

I've never seen a model railroader who's satisfied by the length of their trains. :wink:
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Re: voyttek's layout

Postby voyttek » Sat Jun 21, 2014 4:33 pm

I have been trying to figure out how to improve the North entrance to the station for the last two weeks now.
I like the JP's suggestion with a little modification and also LGV1's from June 16 with double slip turnout.
LGV1 suggestion gives me more options to switch tracks.
On Monday I am going to order more switches; this will give me an additional couple of weeks to think about it.

I also think that the compromise that makes me slow down the trains entering the station would not be the end of the world.
This can be done by signalization, as I learn to accept constrains of size versus optimization.
I am in debt to you all for your input; still can't get over the depth and insight of your comments.

I still welcome critique and suggestions, so please let me know, is not too late to change.
Thanks again,
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P1130987.jpg
My adaptation of JP's suggestion
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Re: voyttek's layout

Postby MacG » Sun Jun 22, 2014 2:29 pm

My last proposal was a mistake. Sorry.

Have you at the crossing left EW2 turnouts and right EW3 turnouts? A very uncommon layout. At a planning program I have some trouble to connect all together. What is your track distance at the bridge and at the station? The bridge track has an angle of 3 degrees to the station?
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voyttek_left.jpg
built with Wintrack, left EW2 and right EW3
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Re: voyttek's layout

Postby LVG1 » Sun Jun 22, 2014 3:17 pm

voyttek wrote:I have been trying to figure out how to improve the North entrance to the station for the last two weeks now.
...


You seem to have missed a basic idea.
Your layout will have the maximal operationality and prototypicality if your trains can depart from any station track into every line and vice versa. But that won't be possible if you place your crossovers inside the outmost turnouts of your station.
In your current design you have not incorporated this idea.
...but it's important...
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Re: voyttek's layout

Postby Juup » Mon Jun 23, 2014 7:29 am

I think I agree with LVG1. The present location of the diamond crossover does not allow trains from other station tracks to access both main lines.

How about a single crossover on the bridge. This would be possible with the standard 4.3cm distance between tracks on the bridge. And then the crossover going the other way a bit later on. As attached???

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V2.jpg
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Re: voyttek's layout

Postby voyttek » Tue Jun 24, 2014 1:41 am

MacG
Yes I used EW 2 and EW 3, this worked for me at that time. Now I disassembled this part of the layout and it will be rearranged in the near future.
Distance between tracks on the bridge is 41 mm, at the station is 70 mm and the angle is 6 degrees.
As for LGV1 comment ...
I guess I did not make it clear enough (I thought, I did) that my plan it is to use a double slip turnout.; kind of borrowing from your suggestion.
.
I like the JP's suggestion with a little modification and also LGV1's from June 16 with double slip turnout.
LGV1 suggestion gives me more options to switch tracks.


I didn't have this showing on my picture yet, only because I just ordered a double slip turnout, but I referred to your letter where You have this showing on Your picture. That way, as you put it "trains can depart from any station track into every line and vice versa".

I would start with the left turnout on the West track just after the track exits the bridge and on the next track I incorporate double slip turnout and the next ladder track.
If I only had more length... I would have incorporated suggestion given by JP.
As for Jupp's suggestion, by now I know not to put turnouts on the steel bridges, even that would be a great idea in my situation ...
One more time, I owe you guys "A big one" as I learned a lot through your comments, but most importantly my LAYOUT will be much better for it. I ordered the turnouts today and hope to get them in about two weeks...
My wife tells me I better do some heavy duty gardening now, otherwise no turnout will help me ???
Attachments
Screen shot 2014-06-23 at 9.53.31 PM.png
This solution was suggested by LGV1
IMG_3402.jpg
looking out the window - no gardening today...
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Re: voyttek's layout

Postby j p » Tue Jun 24, 2014 8:30 am

Oh, that is smart!
I can see from your 2nd picture that you hired 2 gardeners to do the work for you.
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Re: voyttek's layout

Postby Juup » Tue Jun 24, 2014 4:30 pm

The double slip switch should offer a good solution :) Better than the diamond crossover and the awkward kink in the line that created.

Did you sort the other end out yet ... likewise giving access to both lines from all station tracks?

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Re: voyttek's layout

Postby voyttek » Wed Jun 25, 2014 9:52 pm

Juup asked

Did you sort the other end out yet ... likewise giving access to both lines from all station tracks?


Not yet. I will be happy if I manage to finish the North entrance for now.
I ordered some polish electric locomotives and this is going to drain my budged for this year.
Unless I find some way to fix this without buying additional parts, I am afraid this will have to wait.
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