Germany - DB AG and private Railways

These are prototypes which either exist as TT scale models or can be modeled from existing models.
j p
Posts: 1315
Joined: Sat Jan 30, 2016 5:08 pm
Location: Struer, Denmark

Re: Germany - DB AG and private Railways

Post by j p »

Christtking wrote:There is or there was one BR 141 (248-5) in Karlsruher coloring, available from TILLIG, article number 02393, in DB, era IV, and a set to go with this loco (01618). I have not seen myself any models produced of the initial prototype series E 41.
No, that is probably BR 140 painted as 141. (foobie)
See number of the grilles on the sides.

User avatar
LVG1
Posts: 857
Joined: Wed Jun 06, 2012 10:01 am
Location: Guben / Gubin; Germany? Poland?—No, Lusatia!
Contact:

Re: Germany - DB AG and private Railways

Post by LVG1 »

j p wrote:
Christtking wrote:There is or there was one BR 141 (248-5) in Karlsruher coloring, available from TILLIG, article number 02393, in DB, era IV, and a set to go with this loco (01618). I have not seen myself any models produced of the initial prototype series E 41.
No, that is probably BR 140 painted as 141. (foobie)
See number of the grilles on the sides.
That's true. It's series 110 / 139 / 140 labelled as series 141.

But not only the locomotive, also the train is a foobie.
Tilligs model is simply recolored "Silberling" cars with folding doors and with steps below them and with a baggage compartment in the cab car. The prototype didn't have a baggage compartment and was equipped with sliding doors without steps below. So—just like the later suburban (S-Bahn) cars—this train was only usable with high platforms.
LVG1 wrote:
j p wrote:Rob Dikken (zeuke-tt) sells E36.
http://www.zeuke-tt.com/en/spoorlijn-12 ... od-ii.html
...

So, I'll have to write something about that locomotive, too.
Let's have a look on what I've found.

Series E36

Königlich Bayerische Staats-Bahn (Royal Bavarian State Railroad / K.Bay.Sts.B.) started electrification of its lines by extending Austrian electric lines across the border.
The first one was the branch line from Salzburg (Austria) via Berchtesgaden (Germany) to Königssee (Germany). Its Austrian section was privately operated by Salzburger Eisenbahn- und Tramway-Gesellschaft (Salzburg Railway and Streetcar Company / SETG). The entire line was electrified with 1 kV DC and its border crossing and German section was opened in 1907 with electric traffic starting in 1908. It stayed Bavarian State Railroad's only line with a non-standartized electric system and disappeared by alteration to standard system (Berchtesgaden – Königssee) and abandonment (Berchtesgaden – Salzburg), respectively, during World War II. It was operated like an interurban streetcar line, meaning that K.Bay.Sts.B. owned nine little two-axle electric railcars for the German section of this line. Electric locomotives never existed here.
The first electric locomotives—five units of standard system group EP3/5 (later group EP1, later series E62)—were purchased by K.Bay.Sts.B. in 1912 to replace Austrian electrics on the German section of Mittenwald line from Garmisch via Mittenwald to the Austrian border (and on to Innsbruck).

The third line was electrified between 1912 and 1914 (also with standard system). It was the 34 kilometers (21 miles) long mountainuous line from Freilassing (border station / German side close to Austrian Salzburg) via Bad Reichenhall to Berchtesgaden (connection to the initial DC line). For this line, K.Bay.Sts.B. ordered eight locomotives of group EP3/6. Krauss of Munich should deliver four units each with electrical equipment of two different suppliers. Because the electrical equipment required several specific solutions, both batches were rather individual and actually two different types. Both versions were actually a giant motor with a locomotive built around. There were no gears. The rods connected the motor's armature shaft directly to the chassis' dummy shaft. Because HEP was still unknown that time, the locomotives had to be equipped with steam generators to provide heating for passenger trains. But these steam generators were differently positioned at both versions causing the most obvious spotting feature to tell which version it is.
The version equipped with electrical components of MSW (Maffei-Schwartzkopff-Werke / Maffei, Schwartzkopff works) was the first one delivered by Krauss in 1914. These locomotives got the numbers from 20121 through 20124. Their steam generator was relatively close to the motor. So, the pantographs could be mounted at the ends of the locomotives.
Later the same year and 1915, respectively, Krauss delivered the other four locomotives—with electrical equipment supplied by SSW (Siemens-Schuckertwerke / Siemens, Schuckert works). Their numbers were 20101 through 20104. Their steam generators were positioned immediately behind one of the engineer's cabs. Because a slight elevation of the roof was necessary above the steam generator compartment and an exhaust stack had to be mounted, this position was not usable for a pantograph. That's why, these locomotives' pantographs were mounted at the opposite ends and in the middle of the locomotives, respectively.

After World War I, K.Bay.Sts.B. was not satisfied with their designation system, any more. This designation system consisted of letters describing the locomotive's purpose and a fraction referring to the wheel arrangement. But especially concerning electric locomotives, it was forseeable that several different types with the same wheel arrangement for the same purpose would be purchased. That's why, they wanted a better differentiation. So, they changed their designation system for electric locomotives in 1920. While both types had initially belonged to group EP3/6, they were now groups EP3 (numbers 20101 through 20104) and EP4 (numbers 20121 through 20124), respectively.
But this differentiation didn't last for long. The merger of the German state railways forming Deutsche Reichsbahn (German Imperial Railroad / DR) made a nationwidely standardized designation system necessary. Introduced in 1927, this new designation system put both versions together under the same designation, again—series E36. Numbers 20101 through 20104 were renumbered into E36 01 through E36 04. And numbers 20121 through 20124 received the new numbers E36 21 through E36 24.

Series E36 was almost only used in passenger traffic. While E36 21 through E36 24 stayed on their home line for their entire lives, numbers E36 01 through E36 04 were relatively soon no match for the needs, any more. They found new tasks on the lines around Munich in 1927. From the late 1930's on, they were used between Garmisch-Partenkirchen (Germany) and Reutte (Austria) where they stayed till their retirements between 1941 and 1943. Numbers E36 21 through E36 24 had already been withdrawn from service between 1935 and 1937.
Six of these locomotives were scrapped after retirement. Only numbers E36 02 and E36 04 found second lives after alteration into Klima-type snowploughs. After their alteration, their numbers were München 6452 (former E36 04) and München 6453 (former E36 02). By the introduction of the UIC-standardized car numbers in the late 1960's, their numbers changed again. München 6452 became 30 80 974 3027-3. And the new number of München 6453 was 30 80 974 3032-3. 30 80 974 3027-3 (former E36 04) was scrapped in 1983. The other one became property of the Bavarian Railway Museum in Nördlingen in 1986.

Techical data
  • Length over buffers:
    • E36 01 … E36 04: 12.3 m (40 feet 4 1/4 inches)
    • E36 21 … E36 24: 13.55 m (44 feet 5 4/9 inches)
  • Wheel arrangement: 1' C 2'
  • Top speed: 80 km/h (50 mph)
  • Permanent power:
    • E36 01 … E36 04: 480 kW (644 American horse powers)
    • E36 21 … E36 24: 740 kW (992 American horse powers)
  • Maximum power:
    • E36 01 … E36 04: 690 kW (925 American horse powers)
    • E36 21 … E36 24: 960 kW (1,288 American horse powers)
  • Dynamic braking: not available
  • Weight:
    • E36 01 … E36 04: 78.8 metric tons
    • E36 21 … E36 24: 93.7 metric tons
Liveries

K.Bay.Sts.B. defined a very eye-catching (at least for that time) standard livery for their electric locomotives. Besides black frames and silver roofs, they had dark green wheels, rods and carbodies. The upper parts of the carbodies' sides—on the height of the engine room windows—between the cab doors was painted off-white. Additionally, there were the contemporarily usual thin decoration stripes in black and yellow.

When the German state railways had been taken over by the German Empire, the Ministry of Transport formulated standards how to paint railroad vehicles and which colors to use. But Bavarians are traditionally rather obstinate. They didn't like to do what Berlin said. That's not changed even until today. So, they initially kept to their own standards and adopted the nationwide standards only later. This nationwide standard for electric locomotives' liveries was rather short-lived. So, I don't know if series E36 received these colors at all or if they were directly recolored into the successive standard livery.
However, the standards prescribed the frames to be black. Wheels and rods should be reddish brown. Chocolate brown was chosen for the carbodies and silver for the roofs.

Concerning the last livery, it's most senseful to quote myself. What I wrote about series E32 fits series E36 as well:
In the 1930's, all of these locomotives were recolored into DR's new standard livery. Wheels and rods became bright red, now. And the new color for the carbody was steel blue-grey—at least theoretically. Finally, the availability of this specific color tone was poor. So newly delivered locomotives got this color. But when existing locomotives were in need of a new coat of paint, the respective regions used their respective ranges of color tones. Bavaria was the only region also using the prescribed steel blue-grey. But beside that, they also used two slightly different tones of green, instead. Nowadays, it's next to impossible to find out which locomotive got which one of these colors.
Unfortunately, I couldn't find any photos of E36 21 through E36 24 on the web.
Image
Image
Image

The preserved snowplough:
Image

Models

Like j p already told us, there's a very expensive hand-made TT-scale model of E36 04 in its last livery offered by Rob. Unfortunately, its manufacturer is not mentioned. May be, Rob can tell us who the artist is...
Image
"Let's eat, grandpa."
Punctuation marks save lives!

j p
Posts: 1315
Joined: Sat Jan 30, 2016 5:08 pm
Location: Struer, Denmark

Re: Germany - DB AG and private Railways

Post by j p »

Great description again!

The manufacturer of the model is Spoorlijn 120.
It is possible to buy the model as a kit, for around half of the price from http://www.tt-kleinserie.de
Some more pictures of the model in other versions from Kleinserie.de:
Image
Image
Last edited by Anonymous on Mon Apr 20, 2015 5:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
LVG1
Posts: 857
Joined: Wed Jun 06, 2012 10:01 am
Location: Guben / Gubin; Germany? Poland?—No, Lusatia!
Contact:

Re: Germany - DB AG and private Railways

Post by LVG1 »

j p wrote:The manufacturer of the model is Spoorlijn 120.
Oh, I didn't realize that this is the manufacturer's name. :oops:
I thought, it was a Dutch paraphrase for "TT scale"... :roll:
"Let's eat, grandpa."
Punctuation marks save lives!

User avatar
ConducTTor
Site Admin
Posts: 8823
Joined: Sat May 23, 2009 4:52 pm
Location: Atlanta GA USA
Contact:

Re: Germany - DB AG and private Railways

Post by ConducTTor »

So I guess the two that turned into snow plows simply had the motors taken out? Or they stayed to add weight but were disconnected from the wheels?

I've recently become interested in era I models and this would be awesome to own. Too much $$$ unfortunately.
My website: https://www.ttnut.com
It's the website you're already on. But if you want to be even more on it, click the link.

User avatar
Dibbedabb
Posts: 183
Joined: Fri Jan 15, 2010 9:40 am
Location: Cologne / Germany

Re: Germany - DB AG and private Railways

Post by Dibbedabb »

LVG1 wrote:Are there TT-scale models of series E41? I'm not sure. German Modellbau Wiki lists six versions made by TT-Modellbau in 2007. I've never seen them, have you? It wouldn't be the first myth bandied by this site. It already listed other models as "available" which were actually only advertized but never made.
May be, somebody else can enlighten us...
I guess I can enlighten you. The name you gave ("TT-Modellbau") is not the entire name. The entire name is "TT-Modellbau Matthias Kehrer". If you ever have the chance to buy something from this manufacturer - don't! Better run as fast as you can!
In a German TT forum (tt-board.de) this company has the nickname "Kneti Kehrer", which could be translated with "Puggy Kehrer". He's famous for his extremely bad quality and models that redefine the term "a reproduction of the original". He uses plastic materials that start some kind of rusting after a few years.

Plus, he's a master of announcements, even more than Kuehn. None of the models he announces in his catalogues is a real Kehrer model, he always uses models of other manufacturers (mostly H0). And luckily, only few things are actually made. If you want an impression and if you really like to laugh, check this (his) website: https://picasaweb.google.com/MKehrerTT. Obviously he is proud of that stuff... I've never seen a Kehrer product in reality...

To close with a more serious sentence: If he did that as a hobby for his own, I would say "wow, cool!". But since he acts as a manufacturer, this makes me kind of sad...

User avatar
ConducTTor
Site Admin
Posts: 8823
Joined: Sat May 23, 2009 4:52 pm
Location: Atlanta GA USA
Contact:

Re: Germany - DB AG and private Railways

Post by ConducTTor »

Dibbedabb wrote:
LVG1 wrote:Are there TT-scale models of series E41? I'm not sure. German Modellbau Wiki lists six versions made by TT-Modellbau in 2007. I've never seen them, have you? It wouldn't be the first myth bandied by this site. It already listed other models as "available" which were actually only advertized but never made.
May be, somebody else can enlighten us...
I guess I can enlighten you. The name you gave ("TT-Modellbau") is not the entire name. The entire name is "TT-Modellbau Matthias Kehrer". If you ever have the chance to buy something from this manufacturer - don't! Better run as fast as you can!
In a German TT forum (tt-board.de) this company has the nickname "Kneti Kehrer", which could be translated with "Puggy Kehrer". He's famous for his extremely bad quality and models that redefine the term "a reproduction of the original". He uses plastic materials that start some kind of rusting after a few years.

Plus, he's a master of announcements, even more than Kuehn. None of the models he announces in his catalogues is a real Kehrer model, he always uses models of other manufacturers (mostly H0). And luckily, only few things are actually made. If you want an impression and if you really like to laugh, check this (his) website: https://picasaweb.google.com/MKehrerTT. Obviously he is proud of that stuff... I've never seen a Kehrer product in reality...

To close with a more serious sentence: If he did that as a hobby for his own, I would say "wow, cool!". But since he acts as a manufacturer, this makes me kind of sad...
Haha check out the green/silver separation at the roof of this car https://picasaweb.google.com/MKehrerTT/ ... 2122619522 Do you guys not have masking tape in Germany :wink: ?
My website: https://www.ttnut.com
It's the website you're already on. But if you want to be even more on it, click the link.

User avatar
Dibbedabb
Posts: 183
Joined: Fri Jan 15, 2010 9:40 am
Location: Cologne / Germany

Re: Germany - DB AG and private Railways

Post by Dibbedabb »

ConducTTor wrote:Do you guys not have masking tape in Germany :wink: ?
Of course we have :wall:

User avatar
ConducTTor
Site Admin
Posts: 8823
Joined: Sat May 23, 2009 4:52 pm
Location: Atlanta GA USA
Contact:

Re: Germany - DB AG and private Railways

Post by ConducTTor »

It was a joke :)


Sent using Tapatalk - now Free
My website: https://www.ttnut.com
It's the website you're already on. But if you want to be even more on it, click the link.

User avatar
Dibbedabb
Posts: 183
Joined: Fri Jan 15, 2010 9:40 am
Location: Cologne / Germany

Re: Germany - DB AG and private Railways

Post by Dibbedabb »

I know ;)

Post Reply

Return to “Prototypes by Country”