Romania - Caile Ferate Romane

These are prototypes which either exist as TT scale models or can be modeled from existing models.
j p
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Re: Romania - Caile Ferate Romane

Post by j p »

CFRiad wrote: - Series 26-26 double decker car from the 80's, made in the GDR. CFR imported 1st and 2nd class cars. None had control cabs. The cars were individual units allowing coupling at will with other types of cars. They came in the light blue/grey roof livery. Tillig catalogue number 13799 is a decent stand-in. The middle, two-floor section of the German car is longer, making the end section shorter than on the CFR cars.[/list]
I don't think so. Tillig's car is something completely different. At least count the windows...
This car does not need any stand-in, it is Kuehn 41120 (and similar), the only difference is the paint. Kuehn makes several DR versions of this car, then also CD, CSD, and PKP.

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CFRiad
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Re: Romania - Caile Ferate Romane

Post by CFRiad »

j p wrote:
CFRiad wrote: - Series 26-26 double decker car from the 80's, made in the GDR. CFR imported 1st and 2nd class cars. None had control cabs. The cars were individual units allowing coupling at will with other types of cars. They came in the light blue/grey roof livery. Tillig catalogue number 13799 is a decent stand-in. The middle, two-floor section of the German car is longer, making the end section shorter than on the CFR cars.[/list]
I don't think so. Tillig's car is something completely different. At least count the windows...
This car does not need any stand-in, it is Kuehn 41120 (and similar), the only difference is the paint. Kuehn makes several DR versions of this car, then also CD, CSD, and PKP.
Thanks @j p. You are correct, Kuehn 41120 is the one. Just needs some paint.

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Re: Romania - Caile Ferate Romane

Post by LVG1 »

krokodil wrote:I never saw any single frame double deckers in CSD nor in PKP livery.
ČSD received only 50 articulated double-decker trains and 50 single double-decker coaches. Considering the size of the Czechoslovakian railroad network, they've been a true rarity. I also have seen only few photos of them.
But PKP got lots of them. They got 483 articulated trains (plus 57 additional end segments for replacement) and 160 single double-decker coaches. Double-deck vehicles are omnipresent on most Polish mainlines and even on some branch lines.
When I was in Frankfurt upon Oder for the last time, the regional trains between Frankfurt and Poznań consisted of those single double-decker coaches.
krokodil wrote:Do you have some photis from those coaches?
I think, this is the wrong place for non-Romanian prototypes. But I'm searching for pictures and will post them in their respective threads.
Christtking wrote:If may I add. I think the Roumanian built compositions (under licence) the 4 rack always coupled together double deckers were a little different than the East German ones. In Roumania the practice of push trains was not allowed, only when the train was pushed from the depot to the main station (for example in Bucharest Nord=main terminal:kind of like Franfurt auf Main), so when the train (any type of train) was ready to leave for its destination the loco was always ready in the front. When the trains would arrive at their final destination the loco would pull all the way close to the buffers. We got the idea. Some of the European guys know what I am talking about. If the train had to continue its route to another destination, the loco that pulled the train will have to be uncoupled and would remain in that position until another loco will be coupled at the other end of the train (in the front again) for pull service (always). After the train will pull out to its next destination, then the original loco will pull out to go to the shop for maintenance or for its next duty in order to clear the track for another train to come in. So in reality the double decker (type TE) trains were never required to have control cabs, no use for them.
Why do you think, this was a difference?
Also in GDR push-pull trains were relatively rare. They were almost only used as suburban trains and on few regional connections from and to agglomerations. But on the major part of GDR's railroad network, you never saw any cab cars.
So, also Deutsche Reichsbahn mainly got cars and trains without cabs. And they were identical to those delivered to Romania.

By the way:
Deutsche Reichsbahn was the only customer ordering cab cars from GDR's industry. There was not even a single cab car exported.
Christtking wrote:Another thing about those 4 unit double decker coaches if I remember correctly both end walls were extended straight even with the roof (no slope/ special design), same as the design of GLIEDERZUG. The gangways (accordion style made of rigid rubber) were not all the way up extended to the roof like the East German ones. Where the coach's straight walls would end that's where the "burduf" (accordion gangway) will end also, straight (flat) shape on the roof. There were end walls of each single coach on top sections were the rubber gangway was not present (extended) like found in the East German version (s).
Who says that cars have to be unchanged for their entire lives? Poland also got all their articulated trains with sloped roof ends. But now most of these trains have vertical roof ends. They have simply been altered.
I've heard that very few of GDR's articulated trains also got those vertical ends, eventually. But I don't know if it's true.
CFRiad wrote:@LVG1. As you know, UIC prescribes uniform ways for all railways to designate vehicle types using letters and vehicle serials using numbers. E.g. a first and second class sleeper car would be designated as WLABmee ("WL" for sleeper, "AB" for 1/2 class, "m" for I-can't-remember, "ee" for multi voltage electric heating. Same car would get the 71-31 series as the 5th to 8th digit of their vehicle registration number ("7" for 1/2 class sleeper, "1" for 11 compartments, "31" for 140 km/h max speed and electric-only heating.
Yes, I know of these UIC standards. But the way you describe it could be misleading.
These standards shall improve the international traffic. So, narrow-gauge vehicles are excluded from these standards. The letter code does not even incorporate cabeese and MOW vehicles because they usually don't leave their home rails.
The number scheme is relatively explicit—though partially differently interpreted—, while the letter code is open to extensions.
The letter code for freight cars is relatively comprehensive. So only few nations make use of these extensions. Germany, for instance, uses both additional small letters behind a dash and superscript three-digit numbers.
But the UIC standard for passenger cars only includes the main classification—the capital letters and the small "c" for couchette coaches. All other small letters are individually defined by the respective nations. Several nations have even defined additional letters for the main classification. So, for example, Germany adds an additional "D" in front of the UIC-standardized main classification to mark double-deck vehicles.

Regarding your images, only "WLAB" is UIC-standardized. "mee" and "TE25a" are individually defined by CFR.
CFRiad wrote:That being said, the 16-17/26-17 cars were not UIC compliant and were meant for domestic service only. I don't think UIC had a letter designation for double-decker cars back in the 70's.
Wrong!
These trains were UIC-compliant. And they were included by UIC's standards.

But as far as I know, CFR generally omited the letter codes on their passenger cars in the 1970's and 1980's, didn't they?
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Re: Romania - Caile Ferate Romane

Post by CFRiad »

Christtking wrote:@CFRiad: I am still waiting for those photos.
Check these out:

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Re: Romania - Caile Ferate Romane

Post by CFRiad »

LVG1 wrote:
CFRiad wrote:That being said, the 16-17/26-17 cars were not UIC compliant and were meant for domestic service only. I don't think UIC had a letter designation for double-decker cars back in the 70's.
Wrong!
These trains were UIC-compliant. And they were included by UIC's standards.
Oops, I meant RIC-compliant.
LVG1 wrote:But as far as I know, CFR generally omited the letter codes on their passenger cars in the 1970's and 1980's, didn't they?
Yes, they did and still omit them on passenger cars. Even nowadays, CFR Călători (the government owned passenger rail operator) puts letter codes mostly on RIC cars for international traffic and less so on the domestic ones. Other private passenger rail operators have their own rules. The letter codes always appeared on freight cars.

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Re: Romania - Caile Ferate Romane

Post by CFRiad »

This post is about CFR passenger cars and is the second part of the series of posts intended to give a bit of structure and context about CFR in periods IV and V (1970 - 2000). You can find the first part, dealing with locomotives, in an older post in this thread.

When dealing with passenger cars, TT modellers are in a bit more luck than with locomotives. Some passenger cars were imports from other communist countries, in particular from GDR. There are a few Tillig and Kuehn models of cars that operated also on the CFR network. Other cars can be, I hope, adapted from existing models.

Type Y passenger cars designed for international traffic (RIC-compliant)
  • Series 19-47/20-47/92-47 These types of cars were designed and made in Romania in the early 70’s. They share the same technical platform and body. They are, obviously, 24.5 m long, have a ribbed roof, and the roofline slopes at the car ends. The body narrows visibly at the car ends, in the access door area. All car types have Minden-Deutz bogies with axle-driven generators to recharge the batteries. They have modulated air heating using steam and multi-voltage electric heat sources. Originally they came in a dark green/grey livery, later repainted in light blue. They were used on international and long-haul domestic routes. Some of the 19-47 and 20-47 series still operate today in their original form and a significant number of units were rebuilt after year 2000.
    No true-to-life TT models exist, as far as I know. Please advise if any model can be kitbashed for a satisfactory stand-in.
    Series 19-47 first class car
    Series 19-47 first class car
    Series 20-47 second class car
    Series 20-47 second class car
    Series 92-47 baggage car, in pretty rough shape
    Series 92-47 baggage car, in pretty rough shape
    Series 60-41 This type of sleeping car was designed and made in Romania in the early 70’s. The body looked similar to the German-built 19-50 series. They had Minden-Deutz bogies with axle-driven generators to recharge the batteries. They were equipped with a hot water heating system that used an on-board coal fired boiler as the heat source, independent from the heating of the rest of the train. The square chimney of the boiler was conspicuous on the roof. Originally they came in a dark green/grey livery, later repainted in light blue. They were used on international and long-haul domestic overnight routes. These cars were all scrapped after year 2000 and replaced with newly built models.
    No true-to-life TT models exist, as far as I know. Please advise if any model can be kitbashed for a satisfactory stand-in.
    Series 60-41 sleeping car bound for the scrap yard
    Series 60-41 sleeping car bound for the scrap yard
My next post will cover more Type Y RIC-compliant passenger cars
Last edited by CFRiad on Tue Dec 30, 2014 10:51 pm, edited 4 times in total.

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Re: Romania - Caile Ferate Romane

Post by CFRiad »

Part 3 - More Type Y RIC-compliant passenger cars from CFR periods 4-5
  • Series 19-50/20-50/39-50/59-50 These types of cars were built in the GDR by VEB Waggonbau Görlitz in the early 80s and are identical to Type Y/B70 cars of DR. They have Goerlitz VI bogies with axle-driven generators. Heating works with modulated air, using steam and multi-voltage electric heat sources. They came in light-blue/grey livery. The intake grille of the air handling unit is conspicuous mid-car on the corridor side. They were used on international and long-haul domestic routes, where they gradually replaced the 19-47/20-47 series. Some units from these series still operate today in their original form and a number of units were rebuilt after year 2000
    Tillig made a CFR series 19-50 car part of a limited edition “Balt-Orient Express” set (catalogue number 01663). The 20-50, 39-50 and 59-50 series could be created by repainting models of other DR, MAV and CSD cars. Please help in identifying the nearest matches.
    Series 19-50 first class car
    Series 19-50 first class car
    Tillig model - article number 01663
    Tillig model - article number 01663
    Series 20-50 second class car (Kühn article #41736 is a good starting point for modifications)
    Series 20-50 second class car (Kühn article #41736 is a good starting point for modifications)
    Series 39-50 first/second class car (Kühn article #41672 is a good starting point for modifications)
    Series 39-50 first/second class car (Kühn article #41672 is a good starting point for modifications)
    Series 59-50 second class couchette car in 2005 livery (Kühn article #41754 needs minimal modifications)
    Series 59-50 second class couchette car in 2005 livery (Kühn article #41754 needs minimal modifications)
My next post will cover short-haul and suburban passenger cars
Last edited by CFRiad on Sun Mar 08, 2015 8:46 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: Romania - Caile Ferate Romane

Post by CFRiad »

Part four of the CFR series about periods IV and V (1970 - 2000): short-haul and suburban/commuter cars for domestic service only (not RIC compliant)
  • Series 11-47/21-47 These suburban cars were built in the 70’s. All first class and most (~850) second class units were built in Romania. About 180 second class units were imported from Poland. They are 24.5 metres long, otherwise they look a bit like the German Silberlings. The cars have radiant heating using steam and single voltage (1500 V AC) electric heat sources. The Romanian-made cars have a ribbed roof and exposed access stairs. The units made in Poland have smooth roofs and the car body projects downwards to encase the access stairs. Some units from these series still operate today in their original form and a number of units were rebuilt after year 2000
    No true-to-life TT models exist, as far as I know. Please advise if any model can be kitbashed for a satisfactory stand-in.
    Series 11-47 first class car
    Series 11-47 first class car
    Series 21-47 second class car, made in Romania
    Series 21-47 second class car, made in Romania
    Series 21-47 second class car, made in Poland
    Series 21-47 second class car, made in Poland
    Series 16-17/26-17 These commuter double-decker four-car trainsets were imported from GDR in the 70’s and later built in Romania. You can find more information about these in @christtking and my posts from earlier in this thread. Some units from these series still operate today in their original form and a number of units were rebuilt after year 2000.
    Tillig catalogue number 01357 is an excellent replica. Arnold catalogue number 21-HN9500 (or similar) is a good starting point for modifications (@j p, thanks for the suggestion)
    Series 26-17 double-decker trainset
    Series 26-17 double-decker trainset
    Arnold model of  the DR version
    Arnold model of the DR version
More suburban and commuter passenger cars to follow
Last edited by CFRiad on Tue Dec 30, 2014 10:55 pm, edited 6 times in total.

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Re: Romania - Caile Ferate Romane

Post by CFRiad »

Part five, and the last about CFR passenger cars from period 4-5 (1970-2000)
  • Series 26-26 These double-decker cars were imported from GDR in the 80’s. You can find more information about these in @christtking and my posts from earlier in this thread. All units from this series were rebuilt after year 2000 and are in operation today.
    Kuehn catalogue number 41260 is an excellent replica.
    Series 26-26 double-decker car
    Series 26-26 double-decker car
    Kuehn model of a 26-26 series car in CSD livery
    Kuehn model of a 26-26 series car in CSD livery
More posts about CFR freight cars and infrastructure from period 4-5 to follow.
Last edited by CFRiad on Tue Dec 30, 2014 10:56 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Romania - Caile Ferate Romane

Post by j p »

Excellent!
I have only one comment about the double deckers: I do not agree that "Tillig catalogue number 01357 is an excellent replica." It is an old Zeuke model from 1960s, not good even as DR version. (it was OK then, but not now)
You'd have to make all those changes as for DR, PKP, or CSD + additional changes for CFR. I don't think it would be worth the time because much better model is available from Arnold.

Therefore, I'd suggest to change it to: "Arnold catalogue number 21-HN9500 (or similar) would an excellent model for modification to CFR version"
http://www.mbs-sebnitz.de/media/catalog ... 9500_1.jpg

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