TT fine scale wheelsets are here!

Re: TT fine scale wheelsets are here!

Postby ConnRiver » Thu Jul 10, 2014 8:09 am

Not only pricing but ready availability, seems to me that's what we TT scalers need (although beggars can't be picky ;-)

Having established manufacturers offer TT scale items is huge, isn't it? If we make it worth FVM's time, we'll get more stuff, it sounds like, from what FVM's Matt G. is saying. Maybe 36 inch wheels next? And then . . . (whoa, gotta rein it in, one step at a time!)

-Brian

Brian Chapman
Cedar Rapids, Iowa
Brian Chapman
Cedar Rapids, Iowa / USA
ConnRiver
 
Posts: 421
Joined: Tue Sep 15, 2009 10:51 am
Location: Cedar Rapids, Iowa / USA

Re: TT fine scale wheelsets are here!

Postby LVG1 » Sat Jul 12, 2014 12:23 pm

:!: :!: :!: There's something very important to consider! :!: :!: :!:

Most of you use European tracks because they're readily available. But they follow NEM standards. And their interoperability with NMRA wheelsets is limited.

The reason is following:
NMRA standards are designed for vehicles running on trucks (bogies). But because of the range of prototypes NEM must also consider vehicles with non-deflecting wheels. And their flanges need more space in curves. That's why NEM turnouts have wider channels than those following NMRA.
Because NMRA wheelsets are designed for NMRA tracks, they have different limiting sizes.

The most important limiting size in this case is the back-to-back distance of the wheels. If you don't keep to NEM's upper limit, it'll be very probable that the wheelsets will tend to derail in the frogs of NEM turnouts.
If you want compatibility with NEM turnouts, you'll unconditionally have to keep to NEM's upper limit. This upper limit is 10.4 mm (0.409 inch).

NMRA's standard S-4.1 (Wheels, Proto & Fine Scales) defines a minimum back-to-back distance of 0.415 inch (10.5 mm). So that's absolutely incompatible with NEM turnouts.

NMRA's standard S-4.2 (Standards, Wheels, Standard Scale) offers the opportunity of compatibility with NEM turnouts. There a maximum of 0.417 inch (10.6 mm) is defined which is too much for NEM turnouts. But the minimum defined is 0.407 inch (10.3 mm); and this would work with NEM turnouts.

So, if you want to know if the wheelset can savely operate on NEM turnouts, you'll have to measure the back-to-back distance of the wheels. It shouldn't be less than 0.409 inch.
"Let's eat, grandpa."
Punctuation marks save lives!
User avatar
LVG1
 
Posts: 864
Images: 34
Joined: Wed Jun 06, 2012 10:01 am
Location: Guben / Gubin; Germany? Poland?—No, Lusatia!

Re: TT fine scale wheelsets are here!

Postby j p » Sat Jul 12, 2014 3:51 pm

It seems to me that you are mixing apples with pears.

Please compare NEM standards only to normal or coarse NMRA standards and European FS120 only to Fine Scale NMRA.
It is obvious that normal scale tracks may not be fully compatible with Fine Scale wheels and vice versa.
European FS120 wheels may have the same problems with NEM-compatible track, not mentioning the NEM-incompatible track which is made by most of the European manufacturers.

In general, if something does not comply to the standard, it does not automatically mean that it would not work. It only means that compatibility is not guaranteed. (otherwise long cars could not run on NEM-incompatible streetcar radii of Tillig or Kuehn track :doh: )

My conclusion is that most Fine Scale wheels will also run through most NEM turnouts - but there might be some combination which would not work.

2 additional comments:
1st: Which NEM compatible turnouts are available and acceptable for Fine Scale at all?
TTFiligran and Art&Detail only! You can adjust (or replace) the frogs in both of them. And, I'm sorry, I would not call any of those "readily available". They are available upon request.
What is the problem then?
2nd: I googled the NEM standard to find out that back-to back maximum is 10.7 mm according to NEM 110. Therefore, I don't see any problem with wheels having back-to back distance of 10.5 mm. Have I overlooked something?
j p
 
Posts: 1159
Images: 69
Joined: Sat Jan 30, 2016 5:08 pm

Re: TT fine scale wheelsets are here!

Postby ConducTTor » Sun Jul 13, 2014 2:49 am

Sometime in the coming week Ill try out the wheels and let you know.


Sent using Tapatalk - now Free
What people think: "liberals/conservatives are ruining my country"
What the powerful know: divide and conquer
User avatar
ConducTTor
Site Admin
 
Posts: 8291
Images: 13
Joined: Sat May 23, 2009 4:52 pm
Location: Atlanta GA USA

Re: TT fine scale wheelsets are here!

Postby Tom Dempsey » Sun Jul 13, 2014 12:17 pm

Following your line of reasoning, we should all still be running on Code 148 track, with locomotives powered by clockwork mechanisms. Both NEM and NMRA standards do change over time, almost exclusively in the direction of finer scale and closer adherence to prototypically correct sizing and appearance, these wheel sets are designed with modeling of North American prototype in mind, and frogs can be built.
Tom Dempsey
 
Posts: 229
Images: 1
Joined: Sat Nov 20, 2010 9:08 pm

Re: TT fine scale wheelsets are here!

Postby LVG1 » Sun Jul 13, 2014 12:55 pm

Of course, tracks can be built or accommodated to the needs by everyone themselves. Many TT-nutters do that.
But there are enough poeple who do not or even don't want to do so. And not everybody uses TT Filigran or Art & Detail tracks. I'm sure, most poeple use Tillig tracks (or Kühn) because it's the easiest way of getting trackwork.
I simply wanted to indicate what to consider when using those standard tracks.

j p wrote:I googled the NEM standard to find out that back-to back maximum is 10.7 mm according to NEM 110. Therefore, I don't see any problem with wheels having back-to back distance of 10.5 mm. Have I overlooked something?

I have no idea where you found your information. NEM 110 (German|French) does not say anything about the back-to-back distance.
This size is defined in NEM 310 (German|French). And that clearly says 10.4 mm (measure "Bmax").
Additionally, even in the norms themselves this problem with compatibility is mentioned (NEM 311 [German|French]).
"Let's eat, grandpa."
Punctuation marks save lives!
User avatar
LVG1
 
Posts: 864
Images: 34
Joined: Wed Jun 06, 2012 10:01 am
Location: Guben / Gubin; Germany? Poland?—No, Lusatia!

Re: TT fine scale wheelsets are here!

Postby j p » Sun Jul 13, 2014 6:20 pm

That is the point.
When you use Tillig, Kuehn, or HP track (as I do), it does not make much sense to go for fine scale wheels. I think that HP wheels are fine enough for me at the moment.
I'd expect fine scale would go with hand made track. Filigran and Art&Detail would be probably the only suitable track systems for the fine scale - and even then only for main lines and main station tracks.
I don't go for fine scale on my layout because of this.

OK, it seems that I was wrong with NEM 110. It was E, the distance of the check rail.
j p
 
Posts: 1159
Images: 69
Joined: Sat Jan 30, 2016 5:08 pm

Re: TT fine scale wheelsets are here!

Postby ConducTTor » Wed Jul 16, 2014 1:40 pm

They're on Ebay at $1.10 per axle (100 pack for $110). http://www.ebay.com/itm/271548929211?_t ... EBIDX%3AIT

I haven't had a chance to run the demo ones I have at home yet. Will do it tonight or tomorrow and report.
What people think: "liberals/conservatives are ruining my country"
What the powerful know: divide and conquer
User avatar
ConducTTor
Site Admin
 
Posts: 8291
Images: 13
Joined: Sat May 23, 2009 4:52 pm
Location: Atlanta GA USA

Re: TT fine scale wheelsets are here!

Postby ART&DETAIL » Wed Jul 16, 2014 4:08 pm

Hello People,

oonly for Information, I / we youse on the AKTT_US_group only tillig track and I drive with my TT-fine wheels on this track without Problems!
For my wheels, you need not Special track!! You need a track, which is correctly installation!

Michael
Attachments
CIMG1326_TTboard.jpg
100% tt scale
CIMG1327_TTboard.jpg
100% tt scale trucks
TTboard Radsatz.jpg
100% tt
ART&DETAIL
 
Posts: 130
Joined: Fri Aug 13, 2010 4:37 am
Location: Munich

Re: TT fine scale wheelsets are here!

Postby j p » Wed Jul 16, 2014 4:49 pm

Michael, how about the archbar trucks?
Do you make them too?
How much?
j p
 
Posts: 1159
Images: 69
Joined: Sat Jan 30, 2016 5:08 pm

PreviousNext

Return to Prototypes / Models

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 0 guests