Tillig (MMS) 4 axle reko coaches

Tillig (MMS) 4 axle reko coaches

Postby Christtking » Sun Dec 07, 2014 10:26 pm

Big question for all the experts: I am about to start modifying the inside plastic piece that represents the seats, toilet (WC), walls, access doors, etc. So far I own a few coaches in DR era III (3) and some in era IV (4). Does anyone could be kind and clarify a few things for me, please. I've seen photos of real life coaches of both eras. Some photos of the coaches from era 3 have the inside walls a light green (let's call it Catalina Mist from KRYLON) and the coaches from era IV have the walls yellow beige (let's call it Light Sand from TAMIYA) and some other photos found on other web sites have the walls reversed colours. Which one it is the proper colour? Interested in all eras. Some of the coaches after re-unification of both Germanies wore the new DBAG logo also. e.g the smaragd green with the brown roof version. I think Tillig released that version also.
P.S. the inside seats are the following paint colours: Non-smoking section (5 open seating areas)= dull red (TAMIYA), Smoking section (3 open seating areas, next to the WC=toilet, including the 2 individual seats by the entrance/exit area) hunter green/ peacock house green (for eras 3 & 4). Era 5 (?) maybe similar. I know some of the coaches were refurbished and given new seats with new looks, some multiple colours fabrics were involved. Vertical striped.
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Re: Tillig (MMS) 4 axle reko coaches

Postby LVG1 » Wed Dec 10, 2014 4:22 pm

Only to make sure that we don't misunderstand—this is the type of car, we are talking about, isn't it?
Image

Christtking wrote:Some photos of the coaches from era 3 have the inside walls a light green (let's call it Catalina Mist from KRYLON) and the coaches from era IV have the walls yellow beige (let's call it Light Sand from TAMIYA) and some other photos found on other web sites have the walls reversed colours. Which one it is the proper colour?

I was not aware that there were different colors. And I don't know if they depended on the era.
But on photos, colors can look very different, depending on light, aging and other circumstances (optical illusions triggered by surrounding colors and intensified by photo materials, their aging and image processing). The colors which you described are close enough that it is possible that they are the same color which is simply appearing different because of the effects mentioned...

Christtking wrote:P.S. the inside seats are the following paint colours: Non-smoking section (5 open seating areas)= dull red (TAMIYA), Smoking section (3 open seating areas, next to the WC=toilet, including the 2 individual seats by the entrance/exit area) hunter green/ peacock house green (for eras 3 & 4).

That sounds absolutely strange to me. I've never seen this combination of colors in this type of car.
The (large) non-smokers' compartment had dark green seats. The seats in the (small) smokers' compartment were brown. I'm not sure about the tip-up seats in the vestibule; I think, they were also dark green.
This is the only combination of seat colors in these cars which I've ever seen and heard of, respectively. May be that DR used available materials (with different colors) in the late 1980's and early 1990's in some cars to replace worn-out seats; but this was an exception. I've never seen this.

Christtking wrote:I know some of the coaches were refurbished and given new seats with new looks, some multiple colours fabrics were involved. Vertical striped.

No!
Other types of cars were modernized; but not these ones. Reko cars where withdrawn from service by DB when their interiors were worn out. DB didn't invest any Pfennig into them because their time in service was intended to end very soon.
Only one car was kind of "modernized" by simply removing the smokers' compartment (all but 6 seats and the wall towards the vestibule), so it could be used for bicycles and baby carriages. But this alteration was not approved by the persons in charge and the remaining seats were not changed.
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Re: Tillig (MMS) 4 axle reko coaches

Postby Christtking » Wed Dec 10, 2014 9:35 pm

Yes! This is the type of coach Bghwe (something like that). If you look at the technical drawing (the second one posted by you) top view of the inside of the coach in the vestibule on the left side across from the toilet (bottom left) we can identify 2 individual seats Klapsitzen (?) (Tillig's model have them also). Your explanation is pretty clear about the wall colors. So in reality they never wore the new DBAG logo. I am asking this because Tillig released or will release the smaragd green with brown roof and new DBAG logo coaches (the 2nd class and 2nd class with baggage compartment (area). Thank you again! I will post a photo with the coach also that I've found on http://www.bahnbilder. de . It is a museum coach I think that belongs to VSE. The other photos I don't remember where I've found them. One of the photos include a 2nd class with baggage version. For some reason the seats looked dark red to me, but you are right they are brown. That's is where I get confused, I heard before about the same color classification, but in the photos are reversed.
08_wne_konzept_bghw_zug_sem_2011_04_19.jpg
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bdghwse5150824507401983ss5.jpg
sie-waren-bei-dr-nahverkehrswagen-491882.jpg
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Re: Tillig (MMS) 4 axle reko coaches

Postby Rich B » Thu Dec 11, 2014 3:58 am

There's a website about the bogie rekos, http://www.bghw-wagen.de/

They did wear DBAG logos. On page 80 of the EK Special "Die Wagen der DB, Stand: 1.1.1997", there's two pictures of rakes with them.
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Re: Tillig (MMS) 4 axle reko coaches

Postby LVG1 » Thu Dec 11, 2014 7:30 am

Christtking wrote:This is the type of coach Bghwe (something like that).

The initial type of the standard version was B4ge (era III).
Later they were named Bghwe (era IV).
When the "e" (for HEP equipped) became obsolete because all remaining passenger cars were HEP equipped, the designation was changed into Bghw.
And DB called them Bghw522 (era V).

The version with baggage compartment didn't exist in era III, yet. Their first name was BDghwse and later BDghws.
DB's designation was BDghws534.

Christtking wrote:...we can identify 2 individual seats Klapsitzen (?) (Tillig's model have them also).

Klappsitz = tip-up seat

Christtking wrote:So in reality they never wore the new DBAG logo.

They did.
I saw BDghws534 in both single and two-color versions. But I saw Bghw522 only in single-color version; I don't know if there were some two-color cars in that period, too.

Christtking wrote:For some reason the seats looked dark red to me, but you are right they are brown. That's is where I get confused, I heard before about the same color classification, but in the photos are reversed.

The direct successor of these four-axle Reko coaches was the long Halberstadt cars. They used the same type of seats. So all parts of the seats were exchangeable. But the "Halberstädters" used different colors. Their non-smokers' areas were equipped with red seats. I'm not sure about their smokers' compartments. But I think, they were also brown.
It's possible that some repair facilities eventually ran out of replacement seats in the "correct Reko-coach colors". They may have used "wrong" colors (from "Halberstädters") to replace worn-out seat upholstery. But that's plausible only for the late years and for few cars, not for the major part of their service.
Additionally, most images on the internet show heritage cars. And the authenticity of their details is extremely different, depending on the intentions of their owners. So, they do not give good orientation at all.
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Re: Tillig (MMS) 4 axle reko coaches

Postby Christtking » Thu Dec 11, 2014 10:07 am

Thank you very much LVG1! That makes a lot of sense!
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Re: Tillig (MMS) 4 axle reko coaches

Postby Christtking » Thu Dec 11, 2014 9:00 pm

@Rich B: I apologise I did not answer to your post. I encountered a lot of problems lately with the site. I am reading posts or I am writing and I get locked or the site disappears. I checked out that site also and I found the photos that are more clearer and they have a better view showing the seats' colors. It's misleading like LVG1 mentioned because those coaches are refurbished and used as museum pieces. Thank you! That's what I wanted to say from the beginning. :thumbup:
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Re: Tillig (MMS) 4 axle reko coaches

Postby Christtking » Thu Dec 11, 2014 9:11 pm

Question to LVG1. You've mentioned something about another type of reko cars (4 axle?). Are those the ones from former JATT (now manufactured by TILLIG) by any chance? If so, I have to start another thread. I can not find any info about those anywhere (all versions).
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Re: Tillig (MMS) 4 axle reko coaches

Postby LVG1 » Tue Dec 16, 2014 8:02 pm

Christtking wrote:You've mentioned something about another type of reko cars (4 axle?).

I'm not sure, which cars you're talking about now.
The designation "Reko" (for cars and locomotives, as well) stands for the most extensive way of modernizing worn-out vehicles which DR conducted. "Rekonstruktion" (reconstruction) is kind of building new vehicles using as many parts as possible of "donator vehicles" whiches remaining parts were scrapped afterwards.
"Rekonstruktion" of 4-axle cars was conducted at DR's own repair plant in Halberstadt. Eventually in the 1970's, the donator cars were used up. DR still needed more cars. But the manufacturers were at capacity and couldn't provide DR with the needed amount of new cars. So Halberstadt repair plant went on manufacturing cars. Actually, they were no Reko cars any more, because they were completely new without used parts. But they were absolutely identical to the 4-axle Reko cars. So they were also designated this way, although.
In 1978, a new larger production hall was opened at the Halberstadt repair plant. So they could handle longer cars than the 4-axle Rekos (18.7 meters [61 feet 4 1/4 inches]). This possibility made them quickly change production to a new longer type with 26.4 meters (86 feet 7 1/3 inches) standard length (X or Z type; I'm not sure). So this type was the direct successor of the 4-axle Reko cars, but because it was not identical to any real Reko cars, it did not inherit this designation. Instead, they were called "lange Halberstädter" (long Halberstadt cars).

This is the type of car which I'm talking about:
Image
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Re: Tillig (MMS) 4 axle reko coaches

Postby Christtking » Wed Dec 17, 2014 2:46 pm

@LVG1: I have to start all over again. I've encountered only problems lately. My message from last night poof disappeared it was erased. Anyways! I did some research and I just found out that there was a little confusion on my part. Those other cars I thought they were also "reko" actually they are "Moernisierungswagen". They are kind of similar looking like the "Reko" ones, externally, besides the wider end doors with the bigger windows. The rolling stock available in era III, IV and some appearances in early era V. These coaches internally were adapted with compartments. A variety of versions were built starting in 1960. Some coaches from era III (and some from era IV) were adapted with Goerlitz series III (light) type of bogies, most of them equipped with Goerlitz series V, some early versions of the coaches (maybe the 1st batch? or the prototypes?) had skirts on the bottom. Ag /Ag(e) 1st class coach has 42 seats, 95 units total built. ABg /ABg(e) 1st and 2nd class coach has 24/32 seats, 87 units total built. Bg/Bg(e) 2nd class coach has 72 seats, total of 257 units. BRg/ BRg(e) 2nd class & restaurant/buffet (sponsored by MITROPA corporation) coach has 32 seats, total of 23 units built. Dg 950/Dg(s) 950(955?) baggage coach, number of seats unknown (maybe adapted with seats for the coach attendant only), total number built 20. JATT was the company that first introduced these models on the market for TT scale. I do not remember the articles part numbers. Tillig took over the production after he bought most of the models from JATT. Tillig modified them a little bit, it gave the models new coupling system and bogies (similar found in the long Halberstaedter models). Former JATT models had the inside piece that represents the compartments, corridor, seats, etc. moulded in plastic blue color. Tillig models are typical cream/butter/ivory color molded plastic. The baggage cars from both companies were never supplied with internal piece (maybe no need for one). The models come in all versions: DR, era III, dark green thin line under windows/ gray roof, article numbers: 95601 (1st class), 95611 (2nd class), 95621 (2nd class/restaurant-buffet), 95631 (baggage).
DR, era IV, dark green with thin stripe/gray roof, article numbers (same sequence)" 95602, 95612, 95622 and 95632.
DR, era IV, dark green without stripe/gray roof, article numbers: 95604, 95614, 95624 and 95634.
DR, era IV, ivory/light green/brown roof, article numbers: 95603, 95613, 95623 an 95633.
Only one era V (DBAG) coach was built (baggage) art. num. 95635. Other models to follow in the near future? 1st and 2nd class combined. The real life prototypes passenger coaches were 21,250 mm in length (LOB) and the baggage coach was 20,890 mm long. Unfortunately, both companies JATT and TILLIG released all the versions of the models with the same length of 178 mm. Same type of coach (maybe 2nd class?) that is found in the standard hilfszug sets. I have to make another post, I do not want to lose this one.
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