Tillig 1670X, sleeping coaches type WLAB (m)(e)

Re: Tillig 1670X, sleeping coaches type WLAB (m)(e)

Postby Christtking » Tue Dec 16, 2014 10:14 am

52_20_70-80_240-3_WLABm-R383-BucN-002.jpg
This is the detail I'm talking about.
5220-7080349-2-mt.jpg
16053SZD.jpg
RZD_WL_Tisza-Ex.jpg
RZD_WLABm__62_20_63-80_233-7__2007-08-08_Venezia.jpg
I think TILLIG released this version also (not sure)
More details to add: The outer edges of the steps are painted (white?).
The RZD coaches have no former Soviet railways logo and the long wide rib under the compartment's windows are light yellow (cream?) same thing goes for the doors handlebars and it has only 2 safery bars on all the doors' windows. The former Soviet railways (SZD) coaches have the logo above the coach's identification number, yellow color wide long rib and door handlebars.
There is one more thing but I have to find the photos again in this German forum (I think it's called Dreischeibe?). The lettering above the compartment's windows in different languages (the one in Italian) some coaches (I believe are from the older batch) that says CARROZZA CON LETTI and the newer ones says VAGONE-LETTI (?) (you posted one photo like that)
Last edited by Christtking on Thu Dec 18, 2014 1:45 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Tillig 1670X, sleeping coaches type WLAB (m)(e)

Postby j p » Tue Dec 16, 2014 10:38 am

Could the missing logo be explained by the date the picture was taken? If SZD did not exist anymore, the logo would be missing...
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Re: Tillig 1670X, sleeping coaches type WLAB (m)(e)

Postby Christtking » Tue Dec 16, 2014 10:41 am

Hi jp! Sorry I was editing my last post.
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Re: Tillig 1670X, sleeping coaches type WLAB (m)(e)

Postby Christtking » Wed Dec 17, 2014 10:25 pm

DSCF3153.JPG
Tillig model with modified ends windows (correct location of the safety bars).
SZD_WLABm_Hendaye_2.jpg
Real life prototype (end)
DSCF3155.JPG
Tillig model with altered roof grab bars. I apologise for the poor quality photo, I promise that I will replace it!
SZD_WLABm_Madrid_1.jpg
szdsleep.jpg
Some outline white outer edges on the steps (another detail for the TT model)
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Re: Tillig 1670X, sleeping coaches type WLAB (m)(e)

Postby Christtking » Thu Dec 18, 2014 2:04 pm

16700.jpg
16701.jpg
16702.jpg
16703_HM.jpg
16704.jpg
All the versions released by TILLIG so far, and available on the market. Info taken from TILLIG actualised (up to date) web site.
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Re: Tillig 1670X, sleeping coaches type WLAB (m)(e)

Postby Christtking » Thu Dec 18, 2014 2:33 pm

I just sent TILLIG a message about their windows. I'm sick of them, it's not like the models are cheap, at least design it correctly. Every model I have to change something (at least one thing) that is not correct.
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Re: Tillig 1670X, sleeping coaches type WLAB (m)(e)

Postby LVG1 » Sun Dec 21, 2014 2:27 pm

j p wrote:Tillig car is correct for one version of SZD cars (except for the windows in the end doors)

Wow, there are only few people who are aware of the fact that there is more than only one version of UIC-compliant Y-type sleeping cars for Soviet Union. :thumbup:

Soviet Union got three different versions of the Y-type sleeping cars from Waggonbau Görlitz (WG). As far as I know, they were all equipped with Görlitz V trucks. But possibly, some of them have been replaced in the meantime; I'm not up-to-date concerning Soviet and Russian modifications, respectively.
  • Version 1:
    154 units delivered from 1967 through 1972.
    These cars are air-conditioned. They have nine compartments each—seven second-class compartments and two first-class compartments. The first-class compartments are allocated in the middle of the car. And there is a toilet and shower room (without window) between both first-class compartments which is only accessible from these two compartments. So there's a relatively large distance between the windows of the first-class compartments. That's how you can identify them.
  • Version 2:
    202 units delivered from 1972 through 1976.
    This version forgoes air-conditioning. This makes them recognizable because air-conditioned cars have very low ventilation grilles on their roofs, while non-air-conditioned cars use the same large quadratic grilles also used on all other B and Y-type cars made in GDR.
    Additionally, the interior has been improved—resulting in a different window arrangement. Now there are ten compartments. Just like already usual with other GDR-made sleeping cars, the compartments are now arranged in a more versatile way. Each of them can be prepared for use in first or second class—just as needed. But unfortunately, they have no showers, any more... :(
  • Version 3:
    495 units delivered from 1977 through 1983.
    These cars are air-conditioned again. But there are only minor changes with the interior. But externally, you can tell them from other versions by their again different window arrangement. While all other versions have only windows of identical sizes, this version has one more narrow window on the compartment side. At the same location on the opposite side (gangway side), there is no window at all.
Additionally, there were further minor changes. But I don't know them all.
The cars available in TT scale are correct for no version. Their window arrangement is from version 3 while their ventilation grilles show non-air-conditioned version (only version 2). So it's something what never existed. :(

Meanwhile most (or even all?) of these cars have been modernized. That's discernable by the new windows which are very similar to those used at the more modern Z-type sleeping cars (26.4 meters long and smooth-sided).

Czechoslovakia got two batches:
  • 1st batch:
    25 units delivered in 1974.
    These cars were directly taken out of the series for Soviet Union. So they're almost identical with the second version for them. I know of two differences. The cars for Czechoslovakia got Görlitz VI trucks. The other difference can be found between the central windows on either side. While the Soviet cars have a smooth surface there to accommodate the number plates and the owner's tags, the Czechoslovakian cars have two ribs there—just like between all other windows.
  • 2nd batch:
    51 units delivered in 1981.
    These cars were actually also taken out of the series for Soviet Union. But now there were more differences. Czechoslovakia kept to the non-air-conditioned version as well as to the interior and window arrangement of their first batch. But now they also used Görlitz V trucks and took over all other improvements of the Soviet cars.
Their window arrangements do not fit the available TT-scale cars at all. :(

j p wrote:The cars with sloped roof ends were older, I found a picture from Moscow-Paris route. The bottom part of the sides was different too. They were also used on Moscow-Copenhagen, the train museum in Odense has a model of one of those.
Image

Christtking wrote:Thanks jp! That's the car from the last photo! I did not know that it was skirted also. It is not the same photo like the one I found (that one had the train on a bridge, straight view and was taken from far away), but that is the car. I am searching for more photos.

These are the predecessors of the Y-type cars. They were made before these norms for standardized cars were defined.

140 units of these handsome streamlined sleeping cars were made by Waggonbau Görlitz (WG) for Soviet Union from 1959 through 1961. 100 of those cars were first-class sleeping cars while the other 40 units were equipped with second-class interior. There was no mixture of both classes.
They were the first Soviet cars which were accepted in all Continental European countries. Their direct predecessors could only be used in Eastern Bloc and in Austria.

j p wrote:Another difference between those two was that the 1974 car was only for standard gauge (1435 mm) while the 1981 car was for standard 1435 mm and broad 1520 mm. So if you want to run that car all the way to Moscow, you need to make the changes as you've described, new paint, and new decals - to modify it to 1981 series.

No, that's wrong. All of these cars were delivered with a second pair of trucks for the other gauge. So all of them could be used and were used in border-crossing trains towards Soviet Union and its successors, respectively.
Czechoslovakia performed their standard-gauge-only services with types of cars which were also used in other standard-gauge countries. They only needed these cars for their traffic towards Soviet Union. So it would have been senseless to order them for one gauge only.

j p wrote:...; cars for use only on broad gauge were wider (those are covered in another section of this board).

Why do you think, the cars you're talking about were used on broad gauge, only?
Soviet Union used their power to force all Eastern Bloc countries to prepare their railroad lines for Soviet broad profile vehicles—at least those lines which Soviet Union wanted to use. So they didn't need special cars for their traffics within Eastern Bloc. They simply used their broad profile cars—also on standard gauge.
They only needed and initially mainly used their UIC-compliant sleeping cars for their traffics to Western European countries.

j p wrote:I don't know if any of those cars changed trucks when entering Russian territory. Only one railway line exists where this would be theoretically possible: the line to Kaliningrad/Königsberg. (was there a sleeping train from Kaliningrad to Poland and Germany?) Trains on all other long distance routes change the trucks where the gauge changes, many hundred miles or kilometers before entering Russia. Broad gauge is (and was) used on the entire network of former SZD (+Finland), not only in Russia. When I took a direct international sleeping car from Prague to St. Petersburg in 1993, the train changed the trucks in Chop near the Czechoslovakia/Ukraine border and continued on broad gauge through 5 other countries before entering Russia.

Initially, this statement was very confusing to me. I had to read it more than once. But now I think, you're right.
The trucks are changed at the borders of the former Soviet countries. Now it's the borders of Belarus and Ukraine where the trucks are changed.
The latest station which was prepared for changing trucks is Mockava in Lithuania. They didn't want their international trains to cross Byelorussian territory, any more.

But Калининград (Kaliningrad) is not a good example.
There have been night trains between Kaliningrad and Poland with through cars to Germany, indeed. But they don't use broad gauge.
The line between Chruściel (Poland) and Kaliningrad consists of an interlaced track with four rails for two different gauges. So vehicles of both standard and broad gauges can use it.
As far as I know, there are no gauge changing facilities in that area.

Christtking wrote:Another thing I came up with. On these Soviet coaches I just realized that they are a little bit different, there is a drawbar with some roller bearing (brackets/holders/fixtures?) that are installed to the exterior of the bogies (sometimes different positions), not coming from one axle to the round device like the ones found on the CSD, etc. versions. The bar is rotating (activated by) with the movement of the car that activates the generator (dynamo?) hidden somewhere else (?) in order to recharge the batteries, I think.

I think, you misunderstood the sense and function of the bar described.
It doesn't rotate. It's a shock absorber. It connects two parts of the truck which are otherwise only connected via coil springs. These shock absorbers stabilize the trucks. They improve the trucks' running characteristics and enable them for higher speeds.

Christtking wrote:...in this German forum (I think it's called Dreischeibe?).

This forum is called "Drehscheibe-online" (turntable-online).
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Re: Tillig 1670X, sleeping coaches type WLAB (m)(e)

Postby j p » Sun Dec 21, 2014 5:11 pm

LVG1:
correction to my post:
- You are right, both batches for CSD had 2 sets of trucks. I looked at a wrong line in the list.
- I have written the thing about the Ammendorf cars wrong, it was not meant like that they could not change trucks, especially because I traveled myself by one of those (also) on standard gauge. I meant broad profile (as opposite to UIC profile).
- Thanks for the clarification about Kaliningrad, it was the only line I could think of where SZD cars could theoretically change trucks when entering Russia (in Europe). It was a reaction on Christtking's post about changing trucks when entering Russian territory. Now I know that it did not happen if we talk about Europe. Russian border crossings where the gauge change as well (where this would be possible) are on Russian borders with China and North Korea.
- All the CSD cars from the 2 batches for broad gauge were equipped also by CNII (ЦНИИ) trucks. You mention only Görlitz V for SZD cars. But most likely, those cars had also CNII or similar trucks for 1520 mm.
- CSD had also one older batch from 1956 for both gauges: WLA, later changed to WLB. Made in Görlitz in 1956. But these are very different from Tillig's model. They had 2 sets of trucks too, some older type (see picture)
Image
Image

- the "drawbar". One of the car's trucks had a generator. Could that be what Christtking meant?
See the difference here on CNII trucks:
Image
Image

I found this site very useful for anyone interested in 1950s-1960s Soviet cars: http://kirill-kravchenko.narod.ru/koffer/vagony/vagony.htm
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Re: Tillig 1670X, sleeping coaches type WLAB (m)(e)

Postby LVG1 » Sun Dec 21, 2014 5:40 pm

j p wrote:- CSD had also one older batch from 1956 for both gauges: WLA, later changed to WLB. Made in Görlitz in 1956. But these are very different from Tillig's model. They had 2 sets of trucks too, some older type (see picture)

Yes, I know. These are the predecessors of the streamliners which I talked about (those which were only usable in Eastern Bloc and Austria).
Soviet Union got 55 of them (33 first class and 22 second class) in 1953 and 1954. Czechoslovakia purchased ten of them (all first class, but with more beds per compartment than Soviet first class) with only five (!) pairs of broad-gauge trucks in 1956. But also Poland received some cars of that type in 1957.

j p wrote:- the "drawbar". One of the car's trucks had a generator. Could that be what Christtking meant?

No, I don't think so. He posted a photo and commented it: "This is the detail I'm talking about." But this photo doesn't show a generator. It only shows a shock absorber.

j p wrote:I found this site very useful for anyone interested in 1950s-1960s Soviet cars: http://kirill-kravchenko.narod.ru/koffer/vagony/vagony.htm

I'll have a look at it.
...tomorrow...
Now it's time for my bed.
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Re: Tillig 1670X, sleeping coaches type WLAB (m)(e)

Postby Christtking » Sun Dec 21, 2014 7:30 pm

It is a shock absorber (the drawbar). My apologies! For some reason it looked to me like an improved version of the battery charger without the generator. The support brackets look like they could me mounted in different positions also.I looked at the photos posted on Drehscheibe-online and it looks like both tracks have them on both sides. And again, these chances were made constantly on these vehicles according their the needs. Thank you for the comments guys. After all Tillig's models are mutts. No matter how I flip it, they are still wrong (detail wise). I think I am trying too hard to get at least one coach right! It is a non ending battle. :wall: :? :lol: :thumbup:
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