some questions about HP Products Articulated

some questions about HP Products Articulated

Postby Murad » Sun Feb 05, 2012 5:04 pm

I've tried to search some information about HP Products 4-6-6-4, but there is no information about this model at all. What was the year of the model? How much of them were prodused?
Is it possible to find one of them right now in any condition?
I saw some parts of this engine (boiler and some pieces of the frame) on e-bay in 2007 and this was the only time it appeared there. They were sold for about 108$. What is the reasonoble price for the whole engine?

And one more question:
As i see, HP used similar parts for different models (wheels, motors, boilers & ect) - which part are similar with 4-6-6-4? Is it possible to build challenger from a few other HP engines? (exept boiler of course)
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Re: some questions about HP Products Articulated

Postby AstroGoat760 » Sun Feb 05, 2012 8:10 pm

Murad,

Unfortunately, not much is out there on any specific models, other than what is here, and what can be found out from the TT Scale society. The National Model Railroad Association does not have much, other than a few books that are about general model railroading from the 1940's-1960's. A trip to visit their headquarters in Chattanooga, TN a couple of years ago yielded little information and a lot of wild looks "What scale is THAT!" when I showed them Zeke.

I doubt that even Hay Joyce kept track of exactly how many were made of each type. The fact that many were sold as customizable kits blurred the lines with some wheel configurations (such as the HP 0-8-0, 2-8-0, and light 2-8-2).

Some HP catalogs even mentioned how you can convert one model into a different configuration, and listed the parts needed with some instructions on how to go about said modifications.

It is possible to find HP 4-6-6-4s for sale every now and again. I passed on one on eBay a couple of years ago, as my wife wanted me to put the $500+ cost that it ended up going for to get her some of the TT scale Lionel locomotives and some power kits for them.

Depending on how bad you want an item, $108 can seem reasonable, or not.

Yes, HP used a lot of the same parts over on different models, and some ads even made mention of it, some of the ads listing the HP 4-4-2 Atlantic made mention of that.

It is theoretically possible to build a Challenger from a number of smaller engines. Be prepared for to pay a lot for the needed donor locomotives if you want to build a scale or semi-scale Challenger, for example, I have a pair of HP Pacifics, which could theoretically could be melded into a single Challenger. I paid almost $200 for the one, and around $150 for the other.

There is also the entire issue of fabricating a boiler, which is another topic altogether, but I will say this much: scratchbuilding a boiler is easier said than done, if you want the end result to look realistic.
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Re: some questions about HP Products Articulated

Postby areibel » Sun Feb 05, 2012 11:45 pm

I know several collectors that have researched HP Products, and unfortunatley no one has ever found any records of when a certain model was produced and the numbers built. The common ones like the 0-6-0 and the 4-6-2 were built from the start of production until HP sold out, they're the easiest to find. The 0-8-0. 2-8-0 and the 2-8-2 are a liitle less common, with the 2-8-2 being more rare. And the uncommon ones are usually VERY hard to find- the 4-8-4 Hi Wheel Northern, the 2-10-2 and the two articulateds (2-8-8-2 and 4-6-6-4) all fall under this category.

Hal Joyce was very smart in getting the most from the locomotive parts he produced. All HP locomotives had one of three wheel sizes- 52 inch, 67 inch or 74 inch.
The small locomotives used the smallest wheels- the 0-6-0, 0-8-0 and 2-8-0 are all the same size wheels, and the same boiler casting and the same cab casting (with one hatch). The frames are different between the 0-6-0 and 0-8-0, and there is one slight difference in the boiler- the 0-6-0 was drilled for three handrail posts, the 0-8-0 (and variations) all had four- the cab mounts slightly farther back so it appears longer. The 2-8-8-2 articulated used two of these frames modified, but these are probably the hardest HP locos to find. The common opinion is they weren't even listed in the catalog, there were a few experimental ones built and sold but the extra drive axles made them unreliable on tight curves. The good thing was that the research led them to produce the 4-6-6-4 and offer it in the catalog.

The middle size wheel was used under the 2-8-2, the 4-8-2, 2-8-4, 2-10-2 and the 4-6-6-4. The first three had similar frames, the 2-10-2 had a separate frame as did the articulated. The articulated has several unique parts- the frames and boiler, the front pilot and the drive shaft that powered both sets of driving wheels. These locomotives all used the "big" cab, with two hatches on top.

The only locomotives that used the biggest wheels (74 inch) were the Pacific, the Atlantic (4-4-2) and the High Wheel Northern (4-8-4). The 4-4-2 also used the same boiler and cab as the 0-6-0/0-8-0!

There are some other differences, the later locos with valve gear used different hangers and eccentrics depending on the wheel size and location, there are a few different detail parts for the big locos but the side rods were matched to the wheel size. The main rods had slight differences depending on model, like the articulated used the Pacific main rod but had an extra piece soldered onto the shaft going into the steam chest (cylinders) to lengthen it. There are two and four wheel versions of the front and rear trucks, that's what could make a 2-8-2 with the medium wheels into a 2-8-4 or a 4-8-2, or even a 4-8-4 ("regular") Northern.

So three wheel sizes, two different cabs, two sizes of cylinders,three different tenders, probably a half dozen different boilers and other common parts could be used to build something like 18 different locomotives- just add the right chassis!

They only built one other oddball- the 4-6-0 Ten Wheeler. It was different in that it had all brass construction, sheet brass boiler and cab with cast brass cylinders- but they used the same mid sized wheels as the others.
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Re: some questions about HP Products Articulated

Postby Murad » Mon Feb 06, 2012 5:45 am

AngrySailor302
areibel
Thnako you for your answers!

AngrySailor302
scratchbuilding a boiler is not really hard =) It's very easy to make it from resin. You just need a lot of paraffin to copy the original one.

As I see, the frame of articulated consists of 3 parts: 2 sets of wheels and engine mount part.
So, to TRY to build challenger I'll need:
1. 6 pair of medium wheels
2. 4-wheels front truck (or just wheels, cuz I don't think that it's hard to scratchbuild it)
3. 4-wheels rear truck
4. 2 big cylinders
5. a big cab
6. motor
7. a guy who can make all the measures and pictures of the model
and a lot of time to try to build (or buy =) ) the frame.
And after this to spend much more time with the boiler +)
(Actually I'll need much more parts, as all the parts around the valve gears, the front part of the locomotive and ect, but my english is not so good to find right words :)
Am I right?

If somebody have any of these part for sale - I'll be realy glad to talk to you! =)
WTB any of the HP Products locomotive parts
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Re: some questions about HP Products Articulated

Postby Murad » Mon Feb 06, 2012 5:48 am

Is there any other places on the internet exept ebay where is possible to find any HP locos or parts?
Or any emails of peoples who sell them?
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Re: some questions about HP Products Articulated

Postby AstroGoat760 » Mon Feb 06, 2012 12:51 pm

Murad wrote:AngrySailor302
areibel
Thnako you for your answers!

AngrySailor302
scratchbuilding a boiler is not really hard =) It's very easy to make it from resin. You just need a lot of paraffin to copy the original one.


Keep one thing in mind about trying to replicate a boiler of that length with resin: some resins have the tendency to warp over time, as well as the need for something so large and this will need some reinforcing members running most of the length of it.
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Re: some questions about HP Products Articulated

Postby Murad » Sat May 12, 2012 5:58 pm

and one more question about this beast. Does anyone have the assembling instruction or the list of the HP articles and numbers of the parts needed for the model? There are a lot of HP parts on Ebay right now but I don't know if I need any of them for 4-6-6-4.
WTB any of the HP Products locomotive parts
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Re: some questions about HP Products Articulated

Postby areibel » Sat May 12, 2012 7:36 pm

HP didn't have an assembly or instruction sheet for the articulated, they had a 2-8-2 Mikado instruction sheet that showed how to assemble the chassis and the valve gear but to assemble the entire model you just needed to be a good modeller! Larry Sayre made up a sheet to help with the assembly when he produced a few of the kits, but I haven't seen one- Richard, did you get one with your kit?
And parts- there were a few parts that were specific to the articulated- the two frame sections, the boiler, the front pilot and the worm gear/ drive line parts. HP part numbers usually indicated what locomotive they were used with- the part numbers of the pieces specific to the articulated would be "4664-xxx". But you also needed the parts listed for the frame of the Mikado, times two. That is, two sets of left side rods and main rods, two sets of right, two steam chests, etc. - they would all have the 2820-prefix.
But! The same is true for the other locomotives that used the same driver sizes as the 2-8-2- the 4-8-2, the 2-10-2, etc.. They would have specific parts also, like the frame and boiler that would be "4820-xxx" and "2102-xxx", but they would also use the "2820-xxx" parts that interchanged- clear as mud yet?
Some common parts were used on almost all engines- the handrail mounts, air tanks, bells, whistles , etc. Anything that was marked "1550" was for an 0-6-0, "2800" for 2-8-0's, "4620" for a Pacific, etc.. And tenders, "1600" is for the small tender, "4900" is the medium tender and 5000 was for the large tender.
The common parts aren't too hard to find, but the drivers and frames are very scarce. Some frames sold recently on Ebay, there were 2 frames for a 2-8-0, one for a 4-6-2 and one for a 4-8-2, but you'd have to have two frames from a 2-8-2 or 4-8-2 to even get started, they'd have to be cut down (milled) to use on the 4-6-6-4. And you'd still have to find the drivers, side rods, etc for TWO 2-8-2's, along with the front pilot and drive parts for the articulated- Good luck with that!
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Re: some questions about HP Products Articulated

Postby richardedmonds » Sun May 13, 2012 5:26 am

Hi Al no is the word, my instruction sheet is exactly as you describe yours. However i just noticed that the front pilot is missing so am the lookout now for one of those any ideas mate
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Re: some questions about HP Products Articulated

Postby richardedmonds » Sun May 13, 2012 5:55 am

Al ignore that idiot remark, the pilot is screwed to the front frame and i didn't even notice it. Maybe I should get my eyes checked.
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