Russian = American! (Cars and trucks anyways...)

Russian = American! (Cars and trucks anyways...)

Postby Marquette » Wed Mar 30, 2011 2:52 am

Since the discussions have been all over in various different threads, I thought it might be a good idea to pull together the "translations" of Russian cars and trucks into their American original/source.

Offhand, what I know of models that exist in TT that translate to American road vehicles are:

ZIS-150 truck - International KR-11 (model made by ...?)
GAZ-51 truck - Studebaker US-6 (model made by ...?)
Volga GAZ-21C - 1952 Ford Customline or 1953 Mercury Monterey (model by Herpa; grille is a bit different, but very similar from side and rear)

Given everything, I feel quite comfortable in using these to populate the roads on my modules - these have a VERY American flavour to them - the two trucks are almost identical, and the Volga differs mainly in the grille, some chrome and a minor difference at the rear side windows. In other words - they'll be /right/ at home in an American setting!

While I'm at it, I'll throw out a wishlist, too, of Soviet cars I hope one day will be produced in TT:

GAZ-12 ZIM (1948 Cadillac 62)
ZIS-110 (1942 Packard)
Pobeda (1942 Nash)
GAZ-M1 (1933 Ford)
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Re: Russian = American! (Cars and trucks anyways...)

Postby Marquette » Wed Mar 30, 2011 3:43 am

Couple others... YaAZ 210 I think could pass for a Federal model 65.

The MAZ-200, I can't place - I *know* it looks like /something/ American...
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Re: Russian = American! (Cars and trucks anyways...)

Postby Arseny » Wed Mar 30, 2011 5:18 am

Marquette wrote:ZIS-150 truck - International KR-11 (model made by ...?)


Maybe, K7 or K8? I do not know the difference between K and KR.

The ZiS had different mount of headlights, and different bumper.

GAZ-51 truck - Studebaker US-6 (model made by ...?)


No-no-no! It is not the copy of Studebaker and does not look like Studebaker.
Maybe the form of hood is a little bit similar...

Volga GAZ-21C - 1952 Ford Customline or 1953 Mercury Monterey (model by Herpa; grille is a bit different, but very similar from side and rear)


Maybe 1954 Ford Mainline. But it is not the exact copy, only the similar design.

BTW, the early versions of Volga (1956-1958) had the same grille as Ford! But there is no such model exist...

While I'm at it, I'll throw out a wishlist, too, of Soviet cars I hope one day will be produced in TT:

GAZ-12 ZIM (1948 Cadillac 62)


Yes, I want ZIM too!
Maybe, let's make the special order from V&V? ;)

The ZIM looks like Cadillac, but ...only from the front side. :)
The rear side is different.

ZIS-110 (1942 Packard)


Yes. The design is almost the same.
(A lot of details are a little bit different, so you can not use spare parts from Packard on the ZIS, but you can not notice it in 1:120... :)

Pobeda (1942 Nash)


It seems to me that Pobeda looks like the 1942 Chevrolet Fleetline, like Mini-Things produces.

But in fact the Pobeda is the "mix" of some American and German (like Opel-Capitan) cars, so it looks like the "American-style" car of the 1940s, but not the exact copy of any.

GAZ-M1 (1933 Ford)


Yes! There are some differences, but they are not noticeable, especially in 1:120.

To say more, it is LEGAL licensed copy! (The GAZ plant was built by Ford company)

Some more "Russian-American" cars:

GAZ-A (1927 Ford A)
GAZ-AA truck (1929 Ford AA truck)
L-1 (experimental car, only 6 units built) - 1932 Buick 32-90
ZIS-5 truck (1920s Autocar truck, I could not find the exact model... Autocar-5? Autocar-SA?)
YaAZ truck - maybe the Federal truck? But it is slightly different...

And also the E steam locomotive (it was designed in Russia and was built in USA in 1915-1917, and later in 1943-1945, some of them remained in USA)
And S-160 steam locomotive as Russian Ша (ShA)

Also there were some steam locomotives, built by ALCO and Baldwin in 1930-1931 (5 units each), known as Та and Тб in Russia, 2-10-4 and 2-10-2. Maybe they had a "brothers" in USA? :)

Also there were some "N" steam locomotives, built by Baldwin and ALCO in 1898-1916 for Finnish railways.
Before the 1918 the Finland was a part of Russian Empire, so some of them were used on the "Finland" railway near the Saint-Petersburg. Lenin used one of them to cross the border and go to the Russia to take part in the revolution in 1917.
This locomotive stays as a memorial on a Finland railway station in Saint-Petersburg.
No model exists... :(
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Re: Russian = American! (Cars and trucks anyways...)

Postby Marquette » Wed Mar 30, 2011 10:25 am

Arseny wrote:
Marquette wrote:ZIS-150 truck - International KR-11 (model made by ...?)


Maybe, K7 or K8? I do not know the difference between K and KR.

The ZiS had different mount of headlights, and different bumper.


ZiS-150:
Image

International KR-11 (KS-11 was different in that it had a different rear axle):
Image

International K:
Image

International K-8:
Image

The cab on these is all very similar - and on the K7 - and the cab is also the same on the International D-series.

GAZ-51 truck - Studebaker US-6 (model made by ...?)


No-no-no! It is not the copy of Studebaker and does not look like Studebaker.
Maybe the form of hood is a little bit similar...


Butbut...

Here is a GAZ-51...
Image

And here is a Studebaker US6:
Image

I think they look very similar - only the shape of the fender strikes me as being significantly different.

Volga GAZ-21C - 1952 Ford Customline or 1953 Mercury Monterey (model by Herpa; grille is a bit different, but very similar from side and rear)


Maybe 1954 Ford Mainline. But it is not the exact copy, only the similar design.

BTW, the early versions of Volga (1956-1958) had the same grille as Ford! But there is no such model exist...


1952 Customline:
Image

1954 Mainline:
Image

Volga M-21:
Image

Not exact, no, but pretty close - close enough for me, in 1:120!


Pobeda (1942 Nash)


It seems to me that Pobeda looks like the 1942 Chevrolet Fleetline, like Mini-Things produces.

But in fact the Pobeda is the "mix" of some American and German (like Opel-Capitan) cars, so it looks like the "American-style" car of the 1940s, but not the exact copy of any.


Pobeda:
Image

1942 Nash Ambassador:
Image

1942 Chevy Fleetline:
Image

I think the Pobeda looks a lot more like the Nash - maybe it's just the grille that makes that effect, but the shape seems pretty close to my eye, too!

Regarding the others:

Yes, the YaAZ-210 is very much like the Federal model 65.

I knew also about the GAZ-A and GAZ-AA, and L-1. I also think the MAZ-200 has an American counterpart, but I'm really not sure what...
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Re: Russian = American! (Cars and trucks anyways...)

Postby Marquette » Wed Mar 30, 2011 10:38 am

Two more comments -

re the GAZ-51 - I think it's similar to the US-6, but maybe a little more similar to the GMC CCKW.

re ZiS-150: the shape of the cab is similar to the Internationals, but I only just noticed - the grille is completely different! But close enough for me in TT...
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Re: Russian = American! (Cars and trucks anyways...)

Postby Arseny » Wed Mar 30, 2011 11:37 am

Marquette wrote:
Arseny wrote:
Marquette wrote:ZIS-150 truck - International KR-11 (model made by ...?)


Maybe, K7 or K8? I do not know the difference between K and KR.

The ZiS had different mount of headlights, and different bumper.


ZiS-150:
...
The cab on these is all very similar


Yes, of course. But look at the headlights - on the ZiS-150 they are mounted on the fender, while on the KR-11 at your first photo they are mounted on the engine compartment (?)

As for grille - there is NOT ZiS-150 on your photo, it is experimental ZiS-150V, looking like ZiL-164, in had "vertical" grille, while ZiS-150 had "horizontal":

Image

Also look at the bamper! It is different - the International had horizontal "shelf"

and the cab is also the same on the International D-series.


Yes, but the grille is diferent - not vertical.

The International D-series looks like russian experimental ZiS-15 truck. It was designed in 1938-1940, but was not produced because of the war.


GAZ-51 truck - Studebaker US-6 (model made by ...?)


No-no-no! It is not the copy of Studebaker and does not look like Studebaker.
Maybe the form of hood is a little bit similar...


Butbut...

Here is a GAZ-51...
...
And here is a Studebaker US6:

I think they look very similar - only the shape of the fender strikes me as being significantly different.


Yes, the fender is different, and the headlights are different, and the Studebaker was bigger, and it was 3-axle...

But of course, the designers of GAZ designed GAZ-51 "looking at the Studebaker"... :)

Volga GAZ-21C - 1952 Ford Customline or 1953 Mercury Monterey (model by Herpa; grille is a bit different, but very similar from side and rear)


Maybe 1954 Ford Mainline. But it is not the exact copy, only the similar design.

BTW, the early versions of Volga (1956-1958) had the same grille as Ford! But there is no such model exist...


1952 Customline:
...
1954 Mainline:
..
Volga M-21:
...
Not exact, no, but pretty close - close enough for me, in 1:120!


I can show you even more:

Image
- it is the early modification of Volga, produced in 1956-1958.

Of course, it is looking like Ford, especially on the photos.
But I've seen the Ford and the Volga "in real life" - the Ford is more "flat", more "cubic", while Volga is more "roundish".

The English magazine "The Autocar" wrote in 1960: "...the Volga is entirely of Russian origin...styling of the Volga is a blend of recent American and European influences"
http://www.gaz24.ru/roadtest-1.JPG

Of course, you can use it in TT as Ford.. but make another grille! ;)

Pobeda (1942 Nash)


It seems to me that Pobeda looks like the 1942 Chevrolet Fleetline, like Mini-Things produces.

But in fact the Pobeda is the "mix" of some American and German (like Opel-Capitan) cars, so it looks like the "American-style" car of the 1940s, but not the exact copy of any.


Pobeda:
...
1942 Nash Ambassador:
...
1942 Chevy Fleetline:
...
I think the Pobeda looks a lot more like the Nash - maybe it's just the grille that makes that effect, but the shape seems pretty close to my eye, too!


There vere 3 versions of Pobeda. Look here:

Image

and Chevrolet Fleetline:

Image

But the main difference is not the grille, but the body. Pobeda was "pontoon styling", while the Nash and Chevrolet were not - they have distinct "running boards" and separate fenders. Look at their side - they are not flat!

I also think the MAZ-200 has an American counterpart, but I'm really not sure what...


MAZ-200 originally was produced on the YaAZ plant as YaAZ-200, and it had a horizontal grille.
Of course, it is American-style too.
The designers used the GMC trucks as prototype, and the engine was the copy of the GMC diesel, but maybe the exterior was a little bit different...
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Re: Russian = American! (Cars and trucks anyways...)

Postby Marquette » Thu Mar 31, 2011 3:01 am

Thanks for the input, Arseny!

I see what you mean about the Pobeda - the version you showed definitely looks a lot more like the Chevy from the front. I also really like that earlier Volga M21...

I think some of the differences can be adjusted with a little work if desired, but overall, I think that models of cars like the Volga or Pobeda, or trucks like GAZ-51, YaAZ-210, ZIS-150 will not at all look out of place on a US layout set in the 1950s!
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Re: Russian = American! (Cars and trucks anyways...)

Postby Arseny » Thu Mar 31, 2011 7:30 am

Some more "Russian-American" cars:
GAZ-13 "Chaika" ("Seagull") and ZiL-111 are looking like 1956 Packard Caribbean or 1956 Packard Patrician.
ZiL-111 was a little bit bigger than Chaika and Packard.

Later ZiL was modernized and re-styled, the new version ZiL-111G was looking like Cadillac.

ZiL-157 truck was looking like Dodge or International trucks.
For example, Dodge T234 (but it was 2-axle, so you'll need to remove one axle ;) ) or International M-5-6 military truck.

Also, the model of GAZ-M1 is available in 1:144, Japan-made. It is very rare and hard-to-find, but it exists!
http://www.hlj.com/product/FIRM012 - there is a set including it
I've seen it on Ebay, but the price was too high.. :problem:

Maybe 1:144 is too small for TT, but there was a Ford Y model! (Also known as Ford Junior or Baby Ford). It was produced by Ford company outside the USA and was sold in Europe. It was looking like "small version" of Ford model B and was approx. 30% smaller.
So, you can use this model as Ford Y in TT (if you find it ;) ) - maybe some Ford Y could exist in America or Canada too? For example, for test purposes...
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Re: Russian = American! (Cars and trucks anyways...)

Postby Arseny » Thu Mar 31, 2011 10:06 am

Marquette wrote:I think some of the differences can be adjusted with a little work if desired, but overall, I think that models of cars like the Volga or Pobeda, or trucks like GAZ-51, YaAZ-210, ZIS-150 will not at all look out of place on a US layout set in the 1950s!


Agreed. And GAZ-M1 and ZiS-5, too.

That's why I generated the idea to convert ZiS-150 into International K and YaAZ into Federal... :)
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Re: Russian = American! (Cars and trucks anyways...)

Postby Arseny » Thu Mar 31, 2011 11:10 am

Also there were a lot of American cars and trucks in Russia during the World War II and later, in 1940s and 1950s.
Most popular were Studebaker US6, Wilys MB (Jeep) and Dodge WC.
The Studebaker become almost "native" for the Russian in 1940s.
They were in use as "civil" cars in late 1940s and 1950s.

Russian famous multiple rocket launchers "Katyusha" was mounted mostly on the Studebaker chassis too.

So, I am sure, somebody will produce the Studebaker in TT too.
There are some Russian and Ukranian companies that produce Studebaker in H0 and 1:72 and 1:35. So I hope they will produce it in TT too...
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