Poland - Polskie Koleje Państwowe

These are prototypes which either exist as TT scale models or can be modeled from existing models.

Poland - Polskie Koleje Państwowe

Postby LVG1 » Thu Dec 11, 2014 8:28 am

...restart...

I've been told that the thread which initially existed under this headline had to be removed because of software problems (viruses or something like that). :(
So the information offered by that thread is lost unfortunately. I hope, there's somebody with a good overview of the market who can reproduce that information. I unfortunately lack in the information necessary to do so. :oops:

But although I want to restart this thread because there were images of Polish prototypes requested in another thread. And this is the best place to post these images.

We're talking about GDR-made double deckers delivered to Poland in large quantities and possible to be made out of mass-produced TT-scale models. I don't know if they are even delivered by any model railroad manufacturer in the proper Polish liveries. May be, somebody else can add this information.

From 1959 to 1977, Waggonbau Görlitz (WG / GDR) delivered 473 four-segment articulated double-decker trains (type Bipa in era IV) to PKP. Between 1967 and 1975, 57 end segments for these trains were added as replacement because there were some problems; but I don't know what kind of problems.
All of these trains were delivered with sloped roof ends. However, nowadays almost all trains have vertical roof ends and a changed arrangement of head end windows.
Additionally, PKP removed the intermediate sections of several trains when worn out and used the remaining end segments as two-segment articulated trains. But they had not been delivered this way.

Initial livery, but changed head ends:
Image

Later livery:
Image

Latest livery as far as I know:
Image

Shortened versions:
Image
Image
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And in 1988 and 1989, PKP received 160 single double-decker coaches (type Bdhpun) from the same manufacturer.
They were all delivered in this blue and yellow livery:
Image

Meanwhile all of these cars have been taken over by PKP's subsidiary PKP Przewozy Regionalne (PKP PR) which is now only Przewozy Regionalne (Regional Transportation). So these cars have received new lettering and partially even new colors.
Image
Image
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Re: Poland - Polskie Koleje Państwowe

Postby Christtking » Thu Dec 11, 2014 10:07 pm

1986-08-063452pkpwlabds74w.jpg
1996-08-163pkpwlabd525nhpe.jpg
19820419-820339-73-PKP-WLAB.jpg
1998-02-2213pkpwlabd52pk42.jpg
1998-02-2216pkpwlabdd2agxz.jpg
Here is my little contribution. Some PKP sleeping coaches "WARS", different eras, different color schemes. To be continued
Christtking
 

Re: Poland - Polskie Koleje Państwowe

Postby Christtking » Sun Dec 14, 2014 6:52 pm

DSCF3121.JPG
Personal photo taken in Berlin, May 2002. PKP WARS (dark blue instead of light blue, white doors and extended stripes and inscriptions in white instead of yellow) sleeping coach.
DSCF3123.JPG
Personal photo taken in Berlin, May 2002. PKP WARS (reddish brown or chestnut brown?) bar coach. In the background another PKP WARS sleeping coach.
DSCF3125.JPG
PKP sleeping coach WARS type WLAB (m/e) with different design type of bogies
Christtking
 

Re: Poland - Polskie Koleje Państwowe

Postby Christtking » Mon Dec 15, 2014 3:09 pm

BHp_wagon_2006_02_10_04.jpg
BHp_wagon_2006_02_10_03.jpg
BHp_wagon_2006_02_10_01.jpg
BHp_wagon_2006_02_10_02.jpg
5051-2608028-0-mt.jpg
Some more polish double decker wagons that could be manufactured by different companies or modified from existing models.
Christtking
 

Re: Poland - Polskie Koleje Państwowe

Postby Christtking » Mon Dec 15, 2014 3:16 pm

Bhp_1.jpg
Bhp_2.jpg
BHp_wagpn_2006_02_10_05.jpg
This is the composition (bottom photo only) how these cars were normally run, rack of 6 in the very populated areas (high demand/ rush hour)
I need to find some photos with the real life prototypes that has only the letters P K P (original version, old type logo) and the one that says POLSKIE KOLEJE PANSTWOWE with stripes (kind of like East German one)
Christtking
 

Re: Poland - Polskie Koleje Państwowe

Postby Christtking » Tue Dec 16, 2014 10:09 am

1_kl_IR.jpg
_20050508_160.jpg
DSCF6073.jpg
Different location top lettering (above compartments' windows)
PKP_B_2.jpg
PKP_B_1.jpg
Christtking
 

Re: Poland - Polskie Koleje Państwowe

Postby LVG1 » Sat Dec 20, 2014 6:02 pm

Very interesting pictures, indeed! :thumbup:

But unfortunately, they lack captions and comments making clear how to use it for TT scale.

So let me try to complement it with information:

Post 2:
Five images of GDR-made Y-type sleeping cars.

Post 3:
First and third pictures also show GDR-made Y-type sleeping cars.
The second image shows a Polish-made Y-type buffet car.

Posts 4 and 5:
These are images of the GDR-made double-decker cars described in the first post of this thread.

Christtking wrote:This is the composition (bottom photo only) how these cars were normally run, rack of 6 in the very populated areas (high demand/ rush hour)

This is actually two three-segment trains. They are a shortened version because only four-segment trains were delivered.

Post 6:
First and fourth pictures show Polish made Y-type coaches of first (first picture) and second (fourth picture) class.
Second and third image are again GDR-made Y-type sleeping cars.
And the fifth image shows one of the rare GDR-made Y/B70-type second-class coaches of PKP.

GDR-made Y-type sleeping cars:
All together, 360 cars of this type were delivered to Poland. They divide into six batches consisting of four slightly differing versions. The first batch (50 units) was delivered in 1967 (still with era III lettering). The second batch (1975, 30 units) got the designation WLAB. The third (1976 / 1977, 50 units), the fourth (1979, 80 units) and the fifth (1981, 100 units) batches were indentical and were named WLABwxz. In 1986, the last batch (50 units) was delivered under the designation WLABd.

The differences between the various versions include the arrangement of roof-top mountings, the existence and position of the "Beds free / Beds occupied" signs next to the doors, the existence of slots behind the grab bars next to the doors and technical things which were not visible from outside (heating and brake systems, for instance). Additionally, the second batch had Görlitz VI trucks while all other batches were equipped with Görlitz V trucks.

Tillig's Y-type sleeping cars can be used as good stand-ins. But if you want to be really prototypical, you'll have to modify them.
All of these cars were delivered with a second pair of trucks for Soviet wide gauge. So they could all be used in international traffic to Soviet Union. That's why all of these cars got a Soviet-style arrangement of three EOT lights at each end while all cars of this type delivered to other customers (including Tillig's models) have only two EOT lights on a clearly lower position at each end.
Concerning other details, I don't know if Tillig's models represent one of the versions delivered to Poland.

The first batch was delivered in emerald green but soon recolored by PKP into their new blue scheme. All other batches were blue from the beginnig on and stayed so until PKP was splitted into various subsidiaries. The sleeping cars were taken over by PKP's inter-city subsidiary.
Concerning the color tones, the basic blue actually should have been the same over the years. But finally, it's hard to tell. GDR initially used pre-war RAL color standards (RAL = Reichsausschuss für Lieferbedingungen = imperial commission for delivery specifications). Poland was strongly influenced by their German history; so it seems to be plausible that they also could have kept to RAL. But if they really did so—I finally don't know it. In the 1970's GDR established their own color standards and included them into their TGL (Technische Normen, Gütevorschriften und Lieferbedingungen / technical norms, quality provisions and delivery specifications) standards. Some of the TGL-standardized color tones were identical to their RAL counterparts, others were not. Additionally, GDR kept using RAL colors for some purposes. Finally, I don't know who followed which rules and if these colors really stayed the same, like actually intended. Differences on photos can be explained by aging, pollution, light, image processing and other circumstances. So photos don't really help.
For the "WARS" lettering and the stripes, they initially used a bright yellow tone. I've also heard about orange; but I don't know if this is aging or interpretation or if PKP really changed to an orange color tone, eventually. May be, our Polish friends can clarify this. Like Christtking's photos show, they later changed to white lettering, longer stripes and white doors.
In the recent years, PKP's inter-city subsidiary introduced a completely different color scheme. It's represented by the two most recent photos of sleeping cars. Additionally, several cars have been modernized, meanwhile. So their external appearance differs clearly, now.

These cars were owned by PKP but operated by WARS. WARS (Przedsiębiorstwo Wagonów Restauracyjnych i Sypialnych / enterprise of dining and sleeping cars) was the operator of all sleeping cars in Poland.
In Poland, all major cities and even many medium-sized cities are connected to a relatively ramified network of inland night trains. These night trains include sleeping cars and couchette coaches, though mainly consisting of regular coaches. That's unique in Europe. And that's what Poland needs so many sleeping cars for. Soviet Union and its successors, respectively, are the only European countries operating more sleeping cars than Poland.
From the 1960's on, Poland purchased the lion's share of their sleeping cars from GDR. But there were also few other sleeping cars. In 1974, for instance, PKP got 30 Yugoslav sleeping cars from GOŠA in Smederevska Palanka. But in spite of keeping to the same standards (UIC type Y) and the same length, they differed from GDR-made cars by a different height and shape of their roofs, by a different shape of the cars' ends, by a different length of their compartments (and so also a different distance and arrangement of windows) by a different arrangement of underfloor mountings and by a completely different type of trucks. These cars were not suitable for changing gauges. And they were intended for inland traffic, only. But occassionally—in charter trains and the like—they could be seen outside Poland, although.

Polish-made Y-type cars:
Except for sleeping cars (at least from the 1960's on), Poland's railroad industry made their own passenger cars of all kinds. They kept to UIC's standards for Y-type cars. They form the lion's share of Poland's passenger vehicle fleet.

At the first glance, these cars are relatively similar to those available in TT scale. But there are lots of differences in the details:
  • Lower carbodies—different shape of the roofs.
    Initially, the roofs were smooth. But since the early 1990's, many cars have been modernized and received corrugated roofs.
  • Different shape of the windows.
    At least initially, these cars had windows with corners with a clearly more tight radius than those of GDR-made cars. Since the late 1980's many cars have been modernized and received windows which have been clearly more similar to those of GDR-made cars. (Both changes were implemented independently of each other. So either combination of these changes exists at the prototype.)
  • Further differences are the types of trucks and the arrangement of underfloor mountings.
GDR-made Y/B70-type coaches:
These cars are a really rare sight. Poland purchased only 150 units of these Y/B70-type cars from Waggonbau Bautzen (WB)—all second-class coaches (complementing a fleet of some thousand Y-type cars). They've designated them Bwxzd.

They were delivered in three batches of 50 cars each. The first batch was delivered in 1978 and differed slightly from the other batches. The second (1984) and third (1985) batches were identical. The only actually visible difference is the arrangement of ventilation housings on the roof. But I don't know if one of the versions is identical to the arrangement of the Y/B70-type coaches available in TT scale. Additionally, the first batch had a brake system which was different from what usually was installed into GDR-made cars. But that's a detail which is hardly (or even not at all) visible in TTscale.

Initially, these cars have preferably been used in international inter-city traffic. I'm not sure what it's like now. I guess, they were all taken over by PKP's inter-city subsidiary. But finally, I don't know it.

These cars were delivered in emerald green. This color tone clearly differed from PKP's usual brownish green. In the 1990's, they were recolored into PKP's new scheme of light green with ivory breast. But I don't know which of the later liveries of PKP these cars got.
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Re: Poland - Polskie Koleje Państwowe

Postby Christtking » Sat Dec 20, 2014 10:53 pm

LVG1: Nice job! You know this kind of stuff pretty well, over here I don't have this kind of info. I keep finding all kinds of photos and archive them. It's getting kind of confusing right now because I found some photos that are duplicate and saved under different file with a different name. I have more photos of WARS cars (on my computer at work), there is one that is very eye popping, I think it is a very modernized version of them all, it's the cat's meow! Have to wait until Monday when I get back to work
Christtking
 

Re: Poland - Polskie Koleje Państwowe

Postby Christtking » Mon Dec 22, 2014 12:15 pm

Here we go It's Monday again! As promised I had to access my computer at work in order download some more photos
PKP_WLABd.jpg
This type I've never seen before, different bogies, bottom area for the batteries, some windows do not open (different design), different roof arrangement, 3 marker light at end of coach, new PKP logo
IMG_1129.jpg
PKP_WLABd_D453.jpg
PKP_WLABd_D453_DH13.jpg
PKP_WLAB_DH.jpg
Some photos of the cars caught in action (doing what they are meant to do/pulling the night shift)
Christtking
 

Re: Poland - Polskie Koleje Państwowe

Postby Christtking » Mon Dec 22, 2014 1:43 pm

PKP_Bc.jpg
PKP_Liegewagen_51_51_59-80_363-1_Ingolstadt_D464_29_8_92.jpg
Old timers. In this photo coach running number 51 51 59 80 363-1 Liegewagen
IMG_1131.jpg
Inside view of sleepping compartment. I am not sure if this is the same as found in the German type Y (WLAB) built for PKP
Last edited by Christtking on Tue Dec 23, 2014 11:57 am, edited 2 times in total.
Christtking
 

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