PERSONENWAGEN, what the model numbers mean

PERSONENWAGEN, what the model numbers mean

Postby Rich1853 » Sat Feb 09, 2019 8:05 am

The following is a partial of the only post on my search
"PERSONENWAGEN"
Can somebody explain to me about
... the meaning of the prototype model numbers (as shown in bold type) and more types if available.
...there's a few translation that I got of the type of service these were assigned to, but most were a dead end.
...why are some cars a different color on a train.
...can or do these railcars run presently today as a tourist train
... same question with the Touristenexpress train
LVG1 wrote:
Christtking wrote:This is the type of coach Bghwe (something like that).

The initial type of the standard version was B4ge (era III).
Later they were named Bghwe (era IV).
When the "e" (for HEP equipped) became obsolete because all remaining passenger cars were HEP equipped, the designation was changed into Bghw.
And DB called them Bghw522 (era V).

The version with baggage compartment didn't exist in era III, yet.

This week I received my first dampflok a BR23 and want to get more knowledgeable on personenwagen subject.
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Re: PERSONENWAGEN, what the model numbers mean

Postby krokodil » Sat Feb 09, 2019 10:04 am

It is quite difficult question.
The capital letters says the class: A - 1st class, AB- 1st and 2nd class, B-2nd class only.
All other letters shows the construction differences, and are quite individual from manufacturer to manufacturer. It includes the seat arrangement (one room or coupe), with all combinations, heating system etc.
I cannot remember to see any catalog with detailed description of these details and letters. Today the letters show also such details like aircondition, WiFi on board, power outlets etc. Usually on the manufacturer home page you find probably the description of the given coach and its lettering. Many coaches were also several times refurbished, what automaticcaly changed also the characters in the lettering.
For the BR23 loco try to select the cars with less letters - that time the variety of coaches was much smaller as today.
The paintig of the cars is a different question. In the steam era the national railway companies had mostly an unified color design for the coaches ( for the standard services from dark green to blue etc). Only the top trains had individual (dual) colors, like the Rheingold express, TEE etc.
At the end of the steam era the RR companies introduced special services, like suburban trains, city trains - connecting major cities etc. and those coaches received individual paint designs.
Usually the restaurant coaches had different colors (red).
In Europe the major expres trains crossed several countries, so they carried coaches from different RR companies on the way, so you could find variety of colors in a single train.
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Re: PERSONENWAGEN, what the model numbers mean

Postby Rich1853 » Sat Feb 09, 2019 10:22 am

Thanks.
Are the BR23 Epoche III Personenwagen and Touristenexpress trains running presently today as tourist trains. I have a modern day train yard being built and don't want a steam power locomotive and passenger cars look out of place.
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Re: PERSONENWAGEN, what the model numbers mean

Postby ConducTTor » Sat Feb 09, 2019 11:26 am

Negative. But you could run them as a historical train.


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Re: PERSONENWAGEN, what the model numbers mean

Postby Rich1853 » Sat Feb 09, 2019 12:31 pm

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Re: PERSONENWAGEN, what the model numbers mean

Postby krokodil » Sat Feb 09, 2019 1:04 pm

Some historical societies purchased several old fashion cars ( outsorted from the main RR organisations). For historical order usually they keep their former appearence, but there are examples when the society repaints them and create a semihistorical train. That means in recent livery those cars were never in service.
The next issue is the technical compatibility. Some oldtimer coaches have only steam heating, those coaches cannot be used behind an electric or diesel locomotive ( there are some exceptions), and vice verse the BR23 cannot pull (in winter) coaches with only electrical heating.
In several cases the recent owner of the oldtimer coaches refurbish them to be used on modern lines behind the actual locomotives. ( especially for a long-run trains - over several borders - must be compatible with all RR systems and will be pulled always by a local engine.
In Europe there is a standard ( RIC since 1922) which classifies the coaches for international traffic ( for each country or RR system), and only classified coaches can cross the borders. ( this compatibility is indicated in the chart on the frame of all coaches (RIC box).
Here in Europe we do not have too many historical societies who owns also longer (private) line to run the historical trains - like in USA. Something similar is here mostly only on narrow gauge lines.
The European standard gauge historical trains run mostly on public lines ( of the national railroads) so they must be fully compatible with the recent standards, what is getting to be everyday a bigger problem. The national lines are mostly very busy or upgraded for modern traffic systems, what the historical vehicles cannot always follow ( speed, brake systems, power system etc)
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Re: PERSONENWAGEN, what the model numbers mean

Postby dileTTante » Sat Feb 09, 2019 1:59 pm

In the 1990s when I began German TT I bought trains as sets because I didn't know what cars went with what locos, etc. Not much internet then. The BR23 as BR35 was sold with Touristen Express cars as a set from BTTB which in most information I could find about it was labeled as EpIV. The loco is BR23 but after 1970, according to wikipedia it was classed BR35.

The information sheet from the set says the service began in 1963- I think. And seems to talk about EpIII. The train was a vacation train for workers which ran from Dresden to Varna, Bulgaria. I believe that was the only purpose of the train but have no modern information. Probably it isn't operated the same way now, if at all. I had translated the information sheet from German to English. There was more information available a few years ago but little now. What I had is on a hard drive that failed recently. I can translate the information for you later if you like.

The BR23 can be used with other Ep III passenger cars similar in construction to the Touristen Express, but the Touristen train looks nice and I think the cars have been updated and re-issued by Tillig. The original set is or was available on ebay, but you don't want that locomotive and the updated cars from Tillig are better.

Nothing running with the BR23 is 'modern' so you can consider it a nostalgia excursion train and from the numerous videos it looks like whatever is available in older passenger cars is what gets used.

I'm certainly no expert, never have been to Europe. Just trying to help and gladly accept correction in this from others.

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Re: PERSONENWAGEN, what the model numbers mean

Postby krokodil » Sat Feb 09, 2019 2:20 pm

That is maybe correct but also can be a free lance model.
Yes, in 80-ies the DR (GDR national railway) run several touristic trains. Sometimes these were special trains ( chartered by travel agencies from DR), and also the unions in DR had their exclusive trains. Those chartered trains run only few times a year - mostly they were waiting at final destination 2-3 weeks and come back with the same passengers.
For long-run trains like to Hungary, Bulgaria etc. there were regular trains (running in whole year and also seasonal trains running only in summer: Meridian, Favorit, Pannonia etc. Mostly they had also local (sleeping) coaches, ie not all coaches run the whole line from beginning to end. In summer sometimes those trains were extremely long (for European sizes) and almost always full and very often the standard locomotives were not strong enough for the long train, therefore delays were on daily order.
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Re: PERSONENWAGEN, what the model numbers mean

Postby Rich1853 » Sat Feb 09, 2019 3:01 pm

I decided and purchased a few DONNERBÜCHSEN type of Personenwagen and a matching GEPACKWAGEN only because of the length, and what would look better on my R1 or R2 main line ,oh yea more importantly I forgot to mention that the BR23 is a ZEUKE with the old style coupler, so the choice is limited. These passenger cars are about 46 feet (4.6 inches) while the other ep iii more modern looking ones are close to 76 feet (7.6 inches)
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donnerbuchse
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