New TT-track-system by kuehn-modell.

New TT-track-system by kuehn-modell.

Postby SpurM » Wed May 16, 2012 6:56 am

Hi :shifty: ,

shortly before Xmas 2011 I bought Kühns new tracks-Set. I’m trying to review these tracks as an ordinary model-trains-product, even though I had some influence in constructing and developing these tracks.

TT Kühngleis vergleich 2.jpg
RocoLine H0 - Kühn TT - Tillig TT

On the first glimpse the Kühn-Tracks look exactly like the well known H0-‘RocoLine-without-roadbed’. It’s obvious, this happened on purpose. You don’t have to invent the wheel twice. Look, how similar Kühns BR 103 and his tracks look to Rocos products. One point goes to Kühn: The connections to the last crossties are lowered so they will vanish beneath the ballast.
The rail-profile is only 1,8mm ‘high’ and 0,7mm thin (Tillig TT and most of the N-gauge run on 2,0/2,1mm), so it looks very fine and much more alike the (European) prototype. In my opinion Tilligs TT-tracks have a kind of an H0-feeling, ‘fat’ as they are. But that’s a different story.

TT Kühngleis vergleich 3.jpg
TurnOuts Kühn - Tillig

Kühns geometry is very modern, easy going - and very similar to the geometry by märklins C-Track, but more intelligent in the turnout-affairs. It’s even economical, in many ways: You don’t need all the different short mini-tracks. The turn-outs are sold separately (from Juni 1012 on) around ten euros. Right now you only can buy the ‘super starter set’ (a slightely oversized name for a package with a track-oval and three turnouts…) for 50 Euros at http://www.modelleisenbahn-cms.de/kuehn ... /index.php. I adapted a lot of layout-plans by minitrix, Fleischmann, märklin and the alba-publisher to show how cool the geometry works. Maybe there are more to come. :angel:

TT Kühngleis vergleich 4.jpg
the swing. :-)

Oh yes, the turn outs. Some people found problems while driving through the branch line; my ‘blanket’-waggon sometimes suddenly decides to prefer the straight way (bad boy!). This happens because Kühn constructed the guide rail too low – well, well. But most times it works. And it isn’t all gold at Tilligs track, hm?
The frog can be energized; unfortuneately only the rails, not the frogs bottom (...sounds strange, doesn't it? the frogs bottom can be energized. Mhkay...). RocoLine does it better in H0, they follow the NEM and all wheels slighty touch the frogs bottom (again), so they get power all the way through. But with Kühn it's but better than nothing: Short locomotives can get power here; a test with a 'Köf' will follow.

TT Kühngleis vergleich 7.jpg
TurnOuts RocoLine - Kühn

The turn-outs don’t need a ‘motor’ for trying out and ‘playing’; a small spring makes the switch blades rest – just exactly like the turnouts by british Peco and german Piko do. A nice, cheap idea. But Kühns turnouts blades are made of the profiles, which looks great. Piko & peco use folded plates, which is e.g. in the case of Pikos 55220 weak somehow, you can spread them without any effort, and it looks cheap. Why 20°-turn-outs? Because at märklins H0 C- and K-Track, Roco H0 geoLine, Tillig TT and minitrix N these ‘short’ turn-outs are the best-sellers. That’s why. Maybe longer turnouts will come; it may be a question of ability and ambition, too.

For the use of an electric motor take the springs out, and cut away all the unwanted plastic-stuff. The turnouts are delivered with four ‘edges’, here the Roco-N-motors can take place. They easily can be pulled away for motors ‘underneath’; one more thing we know from RocoLine. Some further details are found on this PDF; you don’t need to speak german, the pictures show everything. http://www.modelleisenbahn-cms.de/kuehn ... /index.php
What I don’t like is the rail-joiners quality. Yes, they work, but it feels as if they are a bit weak. I will change mine against Rocos N-22213 (now available at Fleischmann N). That works.

TT Kühngleis vergleich 1.jpg
Less is more. Sometimes.

To sum up, I like these new tracks. Now TT-Trains look better than ever (except on TT-filigran for high-end-connoisseurs), even on a ‘play’-layout. It’s like TT growing up. It feels now similar to H0, only ‘less big’, which is quite comfortable in these times of small flats (talking about Germany). That’s the way I wanted it to be. I’m curious about this products future - and where this all leads to. If theres one thing for shure about TT it is the changing. :idea:

:wave: Alexx
Last edited by SpurM on Wed May 16, 2012 2:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: New TT-track-system by kuehn-modell.

Postby SpurM » Wed May 16, 2012 9:38 am

Here some layouts.

:wink: Alexx

Alexx TT 001 Kühngleis.jpg
easy.


Alexx TT 17 Kühngleis.jpg
adapted from an old 'Minitrix'-layout.


Alexx TT 21f Kühngleis.jpg
as seen on, no, not TV, but one TT-Kurier 2011.


...and a picture of the H0 and TT turnouts contacts for energizing, the Roco-item is prepared for special motors with switch. Very clever thought and made. And expensive sold...
TT Kühngleis vergleich 6.jpg
Frogs bottoms up! :-)
Last edited by SpurM on Wed May 16, 2012 2:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: New TT-track-system by kuehn-modell.

Postby j p » Wed May 16, 2012 10:37 am

The comparison of the turnouts is somehow misleading.
Tillig's EW1 is not a turnout, it is a headache item which should be avoided. Try to compare Kuehn's turnouts with Tillig's (real) turnouts EW2 and EW3. Even 50 years old H.P. Products turnout has a better geometry than this new turnout from Kuehn. The radius of the Kuehn's turnout is so small that it makes it useless for layouts. Some models would not run on the Kuehn system at all (4-8-2). Have the developers forgotten about the minimum radii (16")? I thought that it was supposed to be for model trains, not for streetcars...
This track system is a big disappointment for me. I hope that Kuehn would realize the mistake and add better turnouts and curves.
Tillig is better (so far). With their track system, there is only one item missing which has to be kitbashed: 24 degrees cross for EW3s. If I had the money I would go for Filligran, of course.
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Re: New TT-track-system by kuehn-modell.

Postby SpurM » Wed May 16, 2012 12:33 pm

My BR 44 by Roco runs perfectly across Kuehns turnouts, wheels 2-10, even in S-curves. 36cm radius should be enough for most of the steam locomotives; if not, they won't run across the small Tillig-turnouts neither, Tilligs big-seller. By the way: I only compare similar types.

Remember, H0-track-systems by märklin & Fleischmann have the 36cm-radius as standard (!); and they sell big steam engines for these tracks, even the BR 41 (2-8-1) and the BR 50 (2-10) and even märklins 'german big boy' takes it as it comes. http://h13.abload.de/img/pict0938dft1.jpg And it works, only Roco H0 steam engines need 42cm as minimum.
So Kühns tracks should work with all TT-locomotives. Calm down.

Have you ever had these track in your hands? Seems no. We've checked it with six guys here, a whole evening with different tt-locomotives, old, new, and everything went pleasant. They guys looked 'happy' and emotional somehow. It was a great evening. So don't judge if you haven't seen it with your own eyes. This is no religion. This is railroading-FUN: Kühns tracks are made for happy playing on great looking tracks. As I wrote above. I don't care if people like Kühns tracks or not - I only wanted to tell about this track-system. It is fun.

By the way, vocabularies like 'headache' may not fit into this peaceful forum, especially with this kind of turnouts beeing the nr. 1 in selling - do you account all these thousand consumers idiots? Interesting, the first reaction ist a grump-entry.
Oh, and in terms of money: Tracks are made for earning money.

Who prefers really biiig turnouts should buy these ones... http://www.h0pur.de/groups/g_22/itemsna3.htm

:shifty: Alexx
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Re: New TT-track-system by kuehn-modell.

Postby ConducTTor » Wed May 16, 2012 1:04 pm

I'm sure there will be shallower turnouts at some point. Until then you can still use the Tillig versions with Kuehn track. I'll def be switching to Kuehn rails when the flex track becomes available (end of this year?).
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Re: New TT-track-system by kuehn-modell.

Postby j p » Wed May 16, 2012 1:42 pm

HP Products 4-8-2 cannot run on that for sure.
As I mentioned, I don't consider Tillig's EW1 at all. Not because of the radius, but because of their design (plastic frog). So the smallest for a layout from Tillig would be EW2. I use EW2 for my hidden station, where their insufficient length is not a problem. Otherwise EW3.
Even if you use the smallest possible engines (such as DB's BR80 or Köf), those Kuehn's turnouts (and Kuehn's curves in general) are still not suitable for layouts. The radius is too small. 36 cm, that is 43.2 meters in real. Try to find it on a railway. Only streetcars (and Chicago 'L') can run on that. For example: DB's BR182 has a minimum curve radius 120 m.
And yes, I have seen it. Good as a toy, not a model.

re. 'headache': if you tried to use Tillig's EW1 with digital, you know why I call it a headache. :)
Shorter engines get stuck on Tillig's EW1.
It is not me calling consumers names. It is actually a success story for Tillig if they could sell so many despite of the poor performance of the EW1 turnout. Sad thing on your sales figure is that some of those were new customers who bought their first train. And some of them would not buy TT anymore after they found out that their train couldn't run through the turnouts... With this logic, you could also claim that McDonald's food is the healthiest food in the world because of the millions of consumers... lol
I actually like Kuehn's models very much. Not the track system. Don't take it personally.
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Re: New TT-track-system by kuehn-modell.

Postby SpurM » Wed May 16, 2012 2:16 pm

Well, I'm fine. It's Kühns thing to make it sucessful. :angel:

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Re: New TT-track-system by kuehn-modell.

Postby Arseny » Sat May 19, 2012 3:32 am

SpurM wrote:My BR 44 by Roco runs perfectly across Kuehns turnouts, wheels 2-10, even in S-curves. 36cm radius should be enough for most of the steam locomotives


For EUROPEAN locomotives, yes.
Most of them can go through 310-mm radius well; some of them need 353-mm radius, but 353 mm is still less than 36 cm. :)

But my HP Mountain (4-8-2) needs 381-mm radius, and some other HP steam locomotives need even 16-inch (406-mm) or 18-inch (457-mm) radiuses!..
I hope Kuehn will produce some other versions of turnouts.

As for Roco BR44 - it goes well through the 310-mm radiuses and even 286-mm old BTTB radiuses. Try BR01, it does not love small radiuses. :wink:
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Re: New TT-track-system by kuehn-modell.

Postby Markus » Sat May 26, 2012 5:53 am

J P: I think you might have overseen the fact that not everyone builds to perfect scale... "those Kuehn's turnouts (and Kuehn's curves in general) are still not suitable for layouts", you wrote. Most of us have to compromise when it comes to how much space we can use for our layouts. Mine is absolutely full of the smallest Tillig turnouts, and I´m happy with them. If I used the longer turnouts I wouldn´t fit the layout in my flat. And all my locos (Tillig, Kuehn, Piko, and BTTB) run perfectly through them. That you don´t like them doesn´t make them unusable for a layout, or even a toy rather than model track.
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Re: New TT-track-system by kuehn-modell.

Postby j p » Sun Jun 03, 2012 5:12 pm

I checked the European NEM 111 standard and found out that the problem (in this case) is not in the standard. Some European manufacturers just don't follow the European standard.... oh well...

Here are the smallest radii for European TT:

smallest permitted radius: car grp A: 265 mm, car grp B: 300 mm, car grp C: 360 mm

recommended smallest radius:
- for station's side tracks: car grp A: 300 mm, car grp B: 360 mm, car grp C: 420 mm
- for main tracks of side lines: car grp A: 360 mm, car grp B: 420 mm, car grp C: 480 mm
- for main tracks of main lines: car grp A: 420 mm, car grp B: 480 mm, car grp C: 540 mm

E.g. if you are a manufacturer of TT tracks and you base your system on a radius smaller than 360 mm, it is likely that some engines and/or cars would not be able to run on your tracks - despite of that fact, that those engines and/or cars were made according to the European NEM standard.

Markus: I am not even trying for a perfect scale. As I mentioned, I use Tillig's EW3 turnouts - and those are far away from a perfect scale, yet much better than EW1 or EW2. Also the track length (2.5 m) at my stations is far away from a perfect scale. The space for my layout is limited. The longest train allowed is 4 m - due to the length of the tracks in the hidden stations. 4 m in TT makes 480 m in real. That is a very short train, isn't it?
I have seen very good layouts made for a very limited space. I have also seen playgrounds for trains - "layouts" overfilled with tracks where a train with an engine and 3 cars is too long for the station. Sometimes it is better to go for less tracks to make stations more "realistic". The choice is yours. My first "layout" was one of those playgrounds. I was 12 years old and my track system was Zeuke/BTTB. :lol:
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