Motor Possibility

Re: Motor Possibility

Postby krokodil » Tue Feb 26, 2019 2:13 pm

Hi Bernd

Sorry that you drive this discussion in this direction. Please try your belt drives and report us how perfect they work. I have several factory made belt driven models ( Roco Crocodile, Brawa Köf, two expensive brass constructions ( one from Japan one from Hungary), All these locomotives have degraded performance against the standard gear driven models. The only pro is the noise. Additionally you can open also some basic schoolbook about small mechanizm calculation and read the cons of the belt drives for the size we need in models. And believe me I also tried many many years ago to make an easier mechanizm as the gears and mostly failed. I found a book from 1953, where Mr. H.Kurz PHD, (an university prof) exactly calculated all mechanizm constructions for model railroads, based also on some sources from US. There is nothing secret, it is just the physics. I am sure that you can find also some articles or books with such calculations.
I just want to help you, save your money and time, what you can easily waste.
The comparison with cars and bigger mechanizm is absolutely not applicable for model locomotives, therefore there is nothing to learn or discuss for us ( model engineering).
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Re: Motor Possibility

Postby Bernd » Tue Feb 26, 2019 3:46 pm

krokidil said:
I just want to help you, save your money and time, what you can easily waste.


So having a hobby is a waste of time and money? Interesting. I have lots of time. I'm retired and money is no problem. Is that the only reason you are trying to talk me out of trying small coreless motors and belt drives or is it something else? Just wondering. If you don't think it'll work why have you wasted all your time answering my posts?

Anyway to proceed. Just received my order for 1.5mm, 2mm, and 8mm reamers. The 8mm reamer is for making a heat sink for the coreless motor if it gets hot.

Also I don't model modern equipment such as U-boats and GP series engines or that latest modern engine to hit the market. I find experimenting with the previous things I posted great fun. I'm more interested in logging and mining industries. They had unusual home made equipment that they called "critters". They were basically built from what ever the shop had around.

Here's a two axle boxcab that would lend itself to a belt/worm gear drive. These are the kinds of engines I like to build.

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Here are some more samples of the kind of modeling I enjoy. I know it's not for the modern model railroader, but that is what I enjoy building.

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And this one I think would be the most fun to build in TT scale. All it would take is a flat car and a truck wheel.

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And example of the "Galloping Geese" of the narrow gauge Rio Grande Railroad. For those that don't know what the Galloping Geese are, here is a picture of one.

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So finding a motor and drive system for these types of models is what I enjoy the most from this hobby. I don't consider it wasted time and money. How can it be if one gets great pride in creating a model from scratch?

Bernd
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Re: Motor Possibility

Postby Bernd » Tue Feb 26, 2019 3:53 pm

I consider the British as top notch model engineers. I discovered the belt drive system from the CLAG (Central London Area Group) website. I also discovered the eddy current drive on a British website.

RMweb https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php

CLAG http://www.clag.org.uk/

And the 4mm scale belt drive.

http://www.clag.org.uk/axle-hung.html

Lot's of ideas to think about for creating drives for small TT scale engines.

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Re: Motor Possibility

Postby krokodil » Tue Feb 26, 2019 5:05 pm

IMG_3867.JPG
Garratt drive

This motor shall drive this 4-8-4+4-8-4 heavy engine from white metal.



Look, I am also retired, and my first TT models are already over 40 years old. If you do not want to listen to my hints, do not do it, it is your job and decision. Unfortunately the physics is the same in Britain as in oversea or here in Austria.
I have also several British models, and I am not very convienced about their quality. A DJH white metal Garratt with a single miniatur coreless motor drive is able to rotate the four wheels on the test pad.....

Anyway I had a chance to ride on one of your wonder vehicle.

https://youtu.be/lXz4WOnUvSU
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Re: Motor Possibility

Postby Bernd » Tue Feb 26, 2019 9:45 pm

I don't think that motor and gear box would fit in a TT scale model since it'll fit in that HO scale Garratt. I also never proposed using a belt drive in such a heavy engine. Pretty expensive at 776.88EUR.

Now that little 0-4-2T in Burma in TT scale could benefit from a small motor and belt drive. It only needs to pull a few cars.

And I'm not listening to your hints so don't worry about it. Never said anything about the quality of British models. I meant that they are great model engineers. A majority of them have almost complete workshops of metal working tools and they know how to use them.

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Re: Motor Possibility

Postby krokodil » Wed Feb 27, 2019 2:31 am

Bernd wrote:I don't think that motor and gear box would fit in a TT scale model since it'll fit in that HO scale Garratt. I also never proposed using a belt drive in such a heavy engine. Pretty expensive at 776.88EUR.


Bernd


The motor with the drive fits easily any TT scale model, it is really very small. Go to zhe DJH WEB there are also the dimensions. ( They have few complete drive units with the motor.
I have one more Garratt from an another british manufacturer ( already out of business). I have got it without a motor, so I was looking for alternatives. The DJH motor was one of them, but it is to weak for the heavy locomotive.

In my film I wanted to show you the Hino truck on rails - I used it as a camera car... :-)
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Motor Possibility

Postby CFRiad » Wed Feb 27, 2019 11:25 am

In engineering there is no “perfect” design. One can only achieve the “good enough”. The art is figuring out what degree of good is enough.

Also, there are two ways to do engineering. I call them the “handbook” and the “tinkering” ways. The former relies heavily on previous experience, the already-tested solutions. It starts the design by (explicitly or implicitly) picking the good enough limit and keeps the final goal in mind all the time. The latter acknowledges the previous experience but is ready to toss it out if it is inconvenient. It tries pushing the limits of good enough and doesn’t care very much about the final goal. The actual goal is the tinkering process itself.

Some people like one way or the other and neither is more “right” than the other. Actually, in engineering we need both types. If we only had tinkerers, nothing would get ever built. If we only had handbook engineers, nothing would have ever been invented.

So there...
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Re: Motor Possibility

Postby CFRiad » Wed Feb 27, 2019 11:52 am

Also there are two types of people in the world of Internet arguments. Those who try to shut the argument down by making peace and those who enjoy arguing and want to keep it going.

So who am I to try making peace? I'll :silent:
Last edited by CFRiad on Wed Feb 27, 2019 12:08 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Motor Possibility

Postby CFRiad » Wed Feb 27, 2019 11:53 am

Also there are two types of people in the world: those who divide people into two types and those who don't.
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Re: Motor Possibility

Postby CFRiad » Wed Feb 27, 2019 12:01 pm

Shut up, CFRiad.
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