Motor Possibility

Re: Motor Possibility

Postby Bernd » Sun Feb 24, 2019 10:26 pm

CFRiad wrote:
Bernd wrote:Guess I better yank the motor and gears out of the Cow, the one without the cab, on the TR2 project since they won't play nice together.


Bernd, everything I read so far in this thread, makes me guess that you are running DC. If this is the case, your life will be much easier with a motorless Cow.


Well actually you are partially correct. I can run DC, AC or DCC on the rails. I use Deltang R/C with an on board rectifier and voltage regulator for the receiver to controll the motor. I have been experimenting on my HO models. Looking forward to try this system out in TT.

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Re: Motor Possibility

Postby dileTTante » Sun Feb 24, 2019 11:31 pm

ConducTTor wrote:Hey Bernd (and anyone else who has experience), what is your experience with twin motor drives? I've thought about this solution but have been concerned about the two motors not being exactly in sync (where one boggie is dragging the other and the other is holding the first one back).


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As you know already, the Brawa E95 in TT is basically two locomotives joined together as one. It has a motor and decoder in each unit. The drive in one unit is connected to the other by cardan shaft. This works. The only electrical connections between the two locomotives are for the front and rear lights and for track power.

The units separated run nearly identically. They could be timed and adjusted separately as though in consist. They can be programmed separately but I found that just programming the two units at the same time as one works well enough, possibly thanks to the cardan shaft.

Also as food for thought, the old American Flyer S scale Alco diesels have a motor on each truck, the two motors completely independent from each other. I've haven't read any criticism of this method.

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Re: Motor Possibility

Postby krokodil » Mon Feb 25, 2019 3:10 am

I do not know in detail the Brawa model, but this company is quite well known from excellent outlook and bad mechanizm.
In Scale 1 we have one scratchbuild locomotive of the E94 with 6 motors - each axle is individually driven. From electrical point of view the circuitry is quite simple, all motors are parallel connected and powered. The loco runs in DC mode or with MM decoder (digital standard for this scale). The gear is not locking (no worm) ie in powerless condition you can push pull the engine on the track - like a real locomotive. On the tests the locomotive does not deliver the same power as other 6 axle locomotives driven by one or two motors. In the E94, the motors are running in lower RPM range (I think the motors are designed for 36 V and in the tracks we have just my 22V) cannot deliver the summary of the 6 powerfull motors
In smaller scales it is always a question the space and the mechanical construction. From physical point view the motor on the bogie is always the worst case. Two motors under the hood and individual universal drives create a challenge for the synchronisation of the motors, and is always a question the two motors require more space as a single motor, not to mention the space for the flywheel(s).
From my experience there is nothing better as a single powerful motor with flywheel(s) with universals to the geartower of each bogie.
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Re: Motor Possibility

Postby Bernd » Mon Feb 25, 2019 11:32 am

As promised. A video of the SW1200 Cow/Calf running coupled together and separated.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rzE9514mBxA

Glad I didn't tear the Calf apart and take out the motor and gears. Could have ruined an over $100 model engine. Also the Calf seems to be noisy in one direction. Will have to check that out.

Bernd

Edited to include You Tube link.
Last edited by Bernd on Mon Feb 25, 2019 2:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Motor Possibility

Postby ConducTTor » Mon Feb 25, 2019 12:19 pm

Pretty damn close. Almost perfect.


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Re: Motor Possibility

Postby krokodil » Mon Feb 25, 2019 1:15 pm

Bernd wrote:As promised. A video of the SW1200 Cow/Calf running coupled together and separated.



Glad I didn't tear the Calf apart and take out the motor and gears. Could have ruined an over $100 model engine. Also the Calf seems to be noisy in one direction. Will have to check that out.

Bernd



However the TTnut does not offer the YT link, I managed to see your video.

:thumbup:
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Re: Motor Possibility

Postby Bernd » Mon Feb 25, 2019 10:41 pm

krokodil wrote:They have 3 styles, but take care they are all very small, up to 8 mm in diameter. That is perfect for very small models ( look also their products - all engines are small, 2-3 axles) and the smaller diameter in this case means also higher speed, ie those motors have 13000 or more RPM. The average wheels of a TT diesel locomotive requires a max of about 6-800 rpm. ( depends on the diameter, bigger wheel smaller RPM).
After simple calculation for a realistic speed of a mainline locomotive: the reduction ratio is about 20, for a switcher: 30 or higher.
This is the next challenge how to reach this reduction.
On the TT wheel axles you can have cogwheels with max of about 15 teeth (or cca 7 mm in diameter). A simple worm gear will reduce the motor rpm only by 15, ie it is the half of the required reduction ratio.
More complex reduction creates a problem in gear housing and probably you need finer gears ( in decimal world towards Modul 0,3 or even smaller. This increases the requirements for production accuracy - look the watchmakers or precision mechanizm).

Look at the http://www.davall.co.uk/media/1877/CONVERSION%20DP%20to%20CP%20to%20MOD.pdf . We are talking about gears with D.P. 64-80, or Modules 0,4-0,3


I was surfing through my back-up disk looking for a particular item and came across these pictures. The first three are of a very small 3v motor with a gear reduction box. The out put shaft is impossible to stop, even if using a pair of pliers on the output shaft. The rpm is slow on the output shaft. Also as krokodil mentioned about small precision gears, they are found in these small gear boxes and could be used as is or the gears could be taken out and used else were for reducing the RPM of a motor.

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The motor to the far left is the one I posted earlier in the thread that I modified so the output shaft would turn faster. Notice the 12v and 10rpm output on the motor next to it. That is the unmodified gearhead. And to the right is a gearhead taken apart showing the miniature gears used. I'm sure they are more precision than watch gears.

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Here are four motors. The two to the left of the penny are gearhead motors. The second from the left has a gearhead that is open. Many small precision gears in that one. The third from the left is a motor out of a camera that would wind the film on the take up spool. I've got over 50 of them. They are around 5 volts and I use them for animation. I did and Atheran crane using these motors. The one on the right I got from E-bay that came in a box of 8 motors. They will fit in the body of the SW1200. All motors are from E-bay.

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So there are small motors out there with gearing for experimentation in scratch built chassis. Finding the right one that will work takes a bit of work and planning in it's use.

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Re: Motor Possibility

Postby krokodil » Tue Feb 26, 2019 5:07 am

I purchased 3 of auch motors https://www.premium-modellbau.de/6mm-micro-planeten-getriebe-1-4v-1-25-1430-u/min-18-gcm-2g-getriebemotor?gclid=Cj0KCQiA5NPjBRDDARIsAM9X1GL5eWQDQShwK9tsTNHjalu41RGe_FShrKObbzrALIateJYikNwCc8kaAvBZEALw_wcB for my crane project ( in TT - not realized yet) and I have bunch of even smaller motors from old phones.
My ones with the planetary gear have a diameter of about 6 mm and the length is below 20 mm.

All is very nice, but there are 2 main issues. All those micromotors run on very low voltage (up to 3 V) what is a challenge if you want to use them to drive the locomotive from 12 V throttle.

There is a new DCC decoder with a 5 V output ( DC/DC convertor is on the PCB).

The second issue is the power what those motors can deliver. It is not a problem to use them in a Faller cars, or even you can get HO cars with radio remote. On the tracks the situation is different. On the layouts you have hills and valleys, narrow curves and long trains. This is very difficult for these small motor. Do not forget their internal construction. The rotating part is mostly just the thin copper wire coil, what will get very hot ( in a Shay on the test pad in about 10 minutes the motor will warm up to over 60 C degrees - do not touch!). There is no opening on the body, no heatsink, nothing, what could reduce the heat from the coils. On the classic motors we have mostly openings, the metal/magnetic core absorbs the heat from the coils, works as a radiator etc. It is completely different situation as in the coreless motors.
In one of my last replies I calculated that on the locowheels we need about 6-800 rpm, and a modern locomotive drives need a flywheel. The last one discloses the geared motors from the locomotives.
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Re: Motor Possibility

Postby Bernd » Tue Feb 26, 2019 10:28 am

For one thing I don't use DCC and never will. I don't like the idea of DCC control of engines. I prefer R/C from Deltang. Reason, I can control those small motors even if there is 12 volts on the track by providing a voltage regulator on board.

These 3 HO engines have a 6 volt motor. On board is a voltage rectifier and voltage regulator. The out put is 5 volts for the radio receiver. Works very well.

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My ideas for powering model engines is not for the production models. I'm will be using these for my own scratch built/kit bashed engines. So don't worry I'm not trying to push my ideas of motors on anybody that's not interested. One needs to look outside the box of DCC and 12 volt control of model engines. The Deltang receivers were developed by David Theunissen in England. David has been making receivers since 2009 and is known for his Fly Electric hobby site. So there is a guy that understands using low voltage, high rpm small motors. This is the system I will be pursuing in motorizing my TT engines.

Experimentation continues with belts and pulleys for chassis drives such as what Hollywood Foundry uses for some of their chassis drives. My order from Nigel Lawton arrived yesterday.

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Two packages of worm and worm gears. These will be used to develop a truck drive on a Climax Class A.

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I want to see if I can combine coreless motors, belt drives and Radio Control in TT scale engines. Thinking outside the 12 volt and DCC box could have it's advantages.

Oh and before you tell me belt drives are old school, tell my why Honda, Nissan, and Toyota are using CVT transmissions in their newer cars? For those who don't know the acronym of what CVT means, it's "constant velocity transmissions". Think snowmobile drive belt to power your snowmobile. If you want to see pictures of CVT's just type CVT into Google.

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Re: Motor Possibility

Postby Bernd » Tue Feb 26, 2019 10:34 am

Found a pretty good site that explains how a CVT works, plus the pro's and con's. Wouldn't it be neat if you could miniaturize it to fit in model engines.

https://www.carfax.com/blog/CVT-pros-and-cons

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