Model Train Show Vancouver 12-13 November

Re: Model Train Show Vancouver 12-13 November

Postby Bill Dixon » Mon Nov 14, 2011 10:02 pm

Trains 2012

Problems with the display.

Murphy - as this was the first public showing of the display Murphy was bound to show up and he did in spades. We had a lot of problems but managed to work though them.

Scenery - the display needs more scenery. Most of the modules are basic flat ones. For now I will let others work on modules with buildings and concentrate on getting away from the flat earth look.

The Track - the curves are too sharp! Short European equipment runs well but longer North American equipment has problems.
Reverse curves - the curves are so sharp that if you have a reverse curve you are asking for derailments even with the shorter European equipment. We had one in the initial display and had to make filler sections to get rid of it.

I think that I am going to have to make new curve modules with broader curves.
I am going to experiment with snap track BR3 curves either on cork or the Tillig roadbed. That should help.

Standards wise I will label the curve modules as:
Sharp Corners: BR1 and BR2 curves.
Medium Corners: BR2 and BR3 curves
Two-Foot Corners: Flex track.

Straight Track - There is a straight track piece: P/N 83740 BG 1 Straight Road Bed Track (166.0 mm) with Filter Capacitor.
One comes with each train set. Should you have one of these track pieces Immediately remove the capacitor, it shorts out the DCC signal. Do it right away because if you use the piece and glue it down you will cause a problem that you will have a hard time finding.

One of the turnouts is causing a problem with my Lok-n-roll chassis. I think that I will be soldering a few more jumpers to it resolve power routing issues.

I need more track.

The next posting will address equipment issues.

Bill Dixon
North Vancouver, BC
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Re: Model Train Show Vancouver 12-13 November

Postby ConducTTor » Mon Nov 14, 2011 10:17 pm

Thanks for the feedback Bill - seeing your layout on display has inspired me to come up with something that I can show as well. Your experiences will be a big help regarding what to avoid. By the way, did you mean to put the above post in your module specific topic? If so, let me know and I'll move it.
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Re: Model Train Show Vancouver 12-13 November

Postby Bill Dixon » Mon Nov 14, 2011 11:34 pm

Trains 2011 Equipment problems

The new European equipment ran well. The couplers are a problem.

North American equipment performance varied. The current curves (BR1 especially) are too sharp for 50' cars.
Lighter 40' cars also had problems.
Coupler wise the MicroTrains N-Scale couplers I use do mate with the Kadee HOn3 couplers Frank uses.
When we both have complete trains any issues will go away.

Locomotives.

My Lionel F3 with a home made drive with Bullant bogies and DCC worked OK except for the issue with clearance on the rear coupler box. A bit of work with a file will solve that issue. I will also add a headlight.

I wish my Lionel GP9 with a Lok-N-Roll chassis worked half as well.
Right now my opinion of the Lok-n-rol chassis is that they are overpriced garbage!
If it wasn't for the money I paid for it and the fact the window is closed I would throw it as far away as I could.
However I spent too much money to do that so I will have to try and fix it.

Issue one: It is noisy. Let me restate that; "IT IS NOISY!" I tried lubing everything but it did not help. Probably an issue with the poorly located, cheap motor.

Issue two: the universals are crap. They are a two part universal with one half press fitting into the other.
I don't think the unit ran more than five minutes Saturday before one universal fell apart. I took it with me Saturday to the layout I was stationed at for the layout tour and spent two hours trying to fix it. Because of the extreme angle of the shafts it is near impossible to get them back together. I did eventually get it back together properly then I took it home to re solder the two pickup wires that broke off.
It ran less than Five Minutes Sunday before breaking again.

Issue three: the truck side frame mounting system puts the trucks over a scale foot on each side too far out.

So what to do:
Starting with issue Two: remake the universals using Northwest Short line products. If that doesn't work then:

Send the frames out to a friend with a milling machine and mill them to take a better motor mounted lower so the universal shaft are at a better angle.

As to issue three: It will take careful cutting and gluing of the side frame mounts to move them closer.

It will take some time but I hope to make something useful out of this product. For the price I shouldn't have to do this.

I think Loc-n-roll should either remove this product from the market and re engineer it to fix the defects, or drop the price drastically to reflect the quality of the product.

Bill Dixon
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Re: Model Train Show Vancouver 12-13 November

Postby Bill Dixon » Mon Nov 14, 2011 11:37 pm

ConducTTor wrote:Thanks for the feedback Bill - seeing your layout on display has inspired me to come up with something that I can show as well. Your experiences will be a big help regarding what to avoid. By the way, did you mean to put the above post in your module specific topic? If so, let me know and I'll move it.


Thinking about it, it could be in both places.
Here were are talking about the display problems and how to fix them.
On the TT-tracks topic I will talk about the curve problems and the revised corners to try and fix that.

Bill Dixon
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Re: Model Train Show Vancouver 12-13 November

Postby ConducTTor » Mon Nov 14, 2011 11:53 pm

Bill Dixon wrote:The current curves (BR1 especially) are too sharp for 50' cars.
Lighter 40' cars also had problems.


This is surprising - the BR1s are 310mm radius and I've yet to have problems with it (granted it's not optimal). Having said that, I won't use 310mm curves on anything meant for display - don't want to end up with the same issues you had.

Bill Dixon wrote:I wish my Lionel GP9 with a Lok-N-Roll chassis worked half as well.
Right now my opinion of the Lok-n-rol chassis is that they are overpriced garbage!
If it wasn't for the money I paid for it and the fact the window is closed I would throw it as far away as I could.
However I spent too much money to do that so I will have to try and fix it.

Issue one: It is noisy. Let me restate that; "IT IS NOISY!" I tried lubing everything but it did not help. Probably an issue with the poorly located, cheap motor.

Issue two: the universals are crap. They are a two part universal with one half press fitting into the other.
I don't think the unit ran more than five minutes Saturday before one universal fell apart. I took it with me Saturday to the layout I was stationed at for the layout tour and spent two hours trying to fix it. Because of the extreme angle of the shafts it is near impossible to get them back together. I did eventually get it back together properly then I took it home to re solder the two pickup wires that broke off.
It ran less than Five Minutes Sunday before breaking again.


The weakness of the LNR is the angle of the drive shafts. This is a cause of both the problems with the universals and the noise.

Also, the original design of all these parts was meant for a street car and not a loco pulling a bunch of weight.

Overall I think if they placed the motor lower and reduced the drive shaft angle the difference would be night and day.
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Re: Model Train Show Vancouver 12-13 November

Postby dileTTante » Tue Nov 15, 2011 12:44 am

Just for the record it wasn't just longer N. American equipment that couldn't take the sharp curves of the modules; I had brought a set of passenger cars to run with the BR01 -4 axle 'eilzugwagen'. The whole set ran well but around the curves the BR01 slowed noticeably under the load and cars wanted to derail. I ran a set of 3 axle passenger cars behind the Beckmann BR38 (which ran sweetly, by the way) and they worked well forward but derailed when pushed around the curves in reverse. Same with some of the goods wagons. All my cars are heavier than original; I added weight to them long ago. Some of Bill's unweighted short goods wagons wouldn't even go through the turnouts.

In addition there is the matter of N. American vs European TT. Naturally we wanted to show N. American TT and would have run it all day if the locos had worked. But the scenery favoured European models. I feel that as we get more sophisticated in our display either we must have separate sections of scenery or have separate layouts. I think separate layouts would be better. They could be displayed at right angles on L shaped tables but be just ovals which would allow greater radii and keep management simple. It's important to show N. American TT but until some time in the distant future when I have done Amtrak or VIA passenger equipment I'll have only German TT. Mark (CSD) is a major contributor to our efforts and his equipment is also European. I'm content to run an entirely N. American display at the shows and leave my equipment home (--actually it's safer to do that) but I feel it's important to accommodate both kinds of models. Otherwise some modelers would be excluded from participating and a great portion of TT would be missing. After all, if it weren't for Europe there hardly would be any TT at all. This is an issue which won't go away. It happened even with TTNut which had to go beyond N. American models.
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Re: Model Train Show Vancouver 12-13 November

Postby ConducTTor » Tue Nov 15, 2011 12:59 am

dileTTante wrote:the scenery favoured European models


I've thought about coming up with scenery that both NA and Euro models will be at home on. But, I'm totally clueless when it comes to scenery so someone else will have to come up with that formula. There's gotta be something though - grass, trees, bushes and, hills that are the same in the US as they are in Germany. Anyone?
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Re: Model Train Show Vancouver 12-13 November

Postby gabbysuz » Tue Nov 15, 2011 1:12 am

ConducTTor wrote:I've thought about coming up with scenery that both NA and Euro models will be at home on. But, I'm totally clueless Anyone?


Hey Guys,

Sorry I missed the show, just couldn't get away from work :wall: , looks like a very nice display you had, too bad you had
some early problems, but that is always the case with new layouts, especially portable.

One thing to maybe consider, whenever wagons / cars start de-railing, I always check the gauge of all the wheels, you'd be surprised how many times the wheels are way off gauge.

Another of course is the coupler problem. Only other thing I can think about regarding the Tillig bedding track, is make sure the rails are connected straight and level, I've had a couple pieces that tend to pop up, I take a small screwdriver and push them back into alignment. Too sharp curves are a problem in any scale. Transition curves help a lot even for sharp radius, are the curves super-elevated ?

Re scenery that is suitable for both European and N. American trains, only thing comes to mind is South America ! Where Baldwins run alongside Henschels !

Hope to make the next show in March,
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Re: Model Train Show Vancouver 12-13 November

Postby MacG » Tue Nov 15, 2011 2:11 pm

A nice dsplay and good work at Vancouver!

But all of my car´s from Gold Coast runs very well at 310 radius. Also the 50' cars from Alex and Schwaetzer.

Last Saturday was a meeting in Dresden and there runs my GP9 with 27 cars more than one hour in a circle with straight rails and two 180° curve (radius 353). It was an Lok-N-Roll chassis, okay it is noisy, but with a great pull. My other GP9 with Tillig components has no chance to pulling this train. Only a F3 A-A (both with Tillig components) has it also made. There was five H0n3 Kadee couplers at the train and the rest are from Micro Trains N.

Tho only problem was the metals wheels of two Gold Coast Cars grinding on the florr of the boxcars. I had no time to fix it before.

At the exhibition in Leipzig runs all Lok-N-Roll stuff very well over 4 days.

The noise can be lowered, by moving the universal joints to the drive shaft. You can also use the service of Lok-N-Roll.

The parts for a Tillig components without a frame costs about 60€. The 100€ for the Lok-N-Roll is fair, because it can pull more than 10 times weight.
Lok-n-Roll.de - we send worldwide :wink:
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Re: Model Train Show Vancouver 12-13 November

Postby Arseny » Tue Nov 15, 2011 5:38 pm

Bill, sorry, but I do not understand - what is "universals"??? :think:

MacG, it's very important question for me - how should I motorize Lionel's locomotives? I live in Russia, somebody thinks it's Europe :) - so it's much easier for me to use Tillig, Piko or Roco (if suitable) as a power unit instead of something from Australia...
Maybe let's discuss it in the separate topic/thread?

I think the Gold Coast's trucks are excellent. It seems to me that they run better than Peresvet's and even Tillig's ones!
But reverse curves are the bad things in any case. Try to avoid them!

As for radiuses: Tillig requires 310-mm radiuses as miminum for the long locomotives (such as BR52 and so on). But in fact I tried to run my BR01 on the 310-mm curve, and it often stopped, even lonely, without any wagons! (But the Roco's BR44 runs well; it seems to me that the reason is that that it is heavier than BR01)
And my long American Mountain (HP) slipped and stalled on the 310-mm radius!
So I think it's better to design new wagons for the 310-mm radius, but use 353-mm or so tracks for shows or for the important layouts. ;)

gabbysuz wrote:Re scenery that is suitable for both European and N. American trains, only thing comes to mind is South America ! Where Baldwins run alongside Henschels !


Not only! In theory, it's Russia! ;)
There were a lot of German stuff here after the WWII, and there were some American stuff too (got by lend-lease in 1941-1945, and in 1915-1918 too!).
But in fact - there are no TT-scale American stuff suitable for Russia.

As for scenery: I think, there are 3 ways:
1) Try to find Auhagen or Busch buildings suitable for N.America. It seems to me there are some.
Also you can use some German-style buildings to model Pennsylvania or Wisconsin - as I know, there are a lot of ethnic Germans there
Also you can try to use some paper J.E.Harmon's buildings.

2) Try to find any over-sized N scale buildings or H0 buildings that are too small.
For example, Peresvet uses H0-scale Faller railway station building on their layout.

3) If you can't find buildings, use trees, bushes, auto road, railroad crossing (with the barrier), automobiles, and so on.
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