Huge gathering of TT-scalers in California!!!

Re: Huge gathering of TT-scalers in California!!!

Postby Richard-B » Thu Mar 27, 2014 1:48 pm

Marquette wrote:So, there's my first concrete contribution to TT. I won't make any money off it.

As the old joke goes...
"How do you make a Million dollars in TT-scale? Start with 2 Million!"
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Re: Huge gathering of TT-scalers in California!!!

Postby scaro » Thu Mar 27, 2014 2:35 pm

ctxmf74 wrote:"i nominated NYC as my US 'critical mass' solution because it ran all over the place, had designs that were picked up by a lot of other railways (more than PRR, i think) and unlike the UP, people do not seem to pathologically hate it"

The US rail scene is based on interchange so there's little reason to pick one railroad as a focus. 90% of the equipment is freight cars of varying roads. So pick a loco that most railroads used ( Athearn picked the GP7 and called it a geep 9 but no one cared) build lots of them in paint schemes that appeal to regional interests and build lots of freight cars and folks will happily buy the stuff and run their trains. Saz Model has the TT ball rolling with the new switcher so now we need another piece of the puzzle to show up.I've heard rumors of another freight car on the horizon and am ready to spend money :>) ......DaveB



sigh. i think you need to read what i wrote again. i did lay down reasons why it might work, admittedly more to promote critical thinking about the realities rather than seriously recommending it as a strategy. the reason for a focus is to build 'critical mass.'

you've just taken that critical mass and flung it all over the place like a madwoman's breakfast. when you do that with critical mass, you'll find that it isn't critical mass anymore.

all you have done is recommend the status quo. you know, the one where we don't have lots of GP9s and freight cars? yeah, that one.

i urge you to read, if you have not already, what richard wrote about On30 because it dissects your mantra very sharply. i do not know if you went to a manufacturer with that comparison, but they would have said no for much the same reasons.

On30 and NZ120 = chassis/track already there + limited proto range + limited era = critical mass
american TT = chassis/track not there + broad proto range + broad range of era = madwoman's breakfast
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Re: Huge gathering of TT-scalers in California!!!

Postby Marquette » Thu Mar 27, 2014 6:00 pm

scaro wrote:On the other hand, the Fowler boxcar was all but extinct by the time the SW came on the scene and a distant memory by the time of the GP38-2. The modern boxcar could run behind either loco but I doubt the wisdom of publicising that car because it's almost the definition of an HO foobie, I think the catcalls will actually put people off TT.


Not entirely true. The earliest SWs you can model with the MTB model came around in the 1950s, and with a bit of extra work you can make an NW2 out of it too, which came around even earlier. So, you can make your locomotive fit the car. At the same time, they were around on the CN, CP and other Canadian roads in the hundreds into the mid/late 1970s, and they were still in revenue service into the early 1980s. So if you're modelling Canada, it's a great match, and if you're modelling the US, well, a Canadian Dominion car may easily turn up in the 1960s, and even in the 1970s may well turn up once in a while.

The thing with the SW1200 and the GP38-2 is that given how thinly spread the scale is, they are both absolute miracles. No doubt of it. Al and CSD deserve some kind of TT lifetime achievement medal.


Absolutely - I second that.

But they are going to do something else ... show the Lionels up for what they are; crude toys. I don't know, maybe this is no bad thing?


I don't think it's a bad thing at all. The Lionels serve their purpose for now as a serviceable stand-in, but I would by no means try to dissuade anyone from pursuing a project to produce a more accurate model of a GP7, GP9 or F3 just because the Lionel F3 and GP7 already exist. (Yes, GP7 - the Lionel is kinda a bastard hybrid but it is closer in at-first-glance appearance to the 7 than the 9: look at the vents at the end of the long hood. See the four vents? That's a GP7 identifier - the 9 had only a single vent there).

j p wrote:This is good news, I'd buy (or trade) some. Fortunately, I have some HP/John Harmon kits left. :thumbup:


Cool! I'm definitely open to making trades, too!

CSD wrote:
Marquette wrote:... So, there's my first concrete contribution to TT. I won't make any money off it...


Welcome to the club!


Hehe, thanks. I'm not complaining though, if the proceeds off the excess can help me further fund my hobby.

ctxmf74 wrote:The US rail scene is based on interchange so there's little reason to pick one railroad as a focus. 90% of the equipment is freight cars of varying roads. So pick a loco that most railroads used ( Athearn picked the GP7 and called it a geep 9 but no one cared) build lots of them in paint schemes that appeal to regional interests and build lots of freight cars and folks will happily buy the stuff and run their trains. Saz Model has the TT ball rolling with the new switcher so now we need another piece of the puzzle to show up.I've heard rumors of another freight car on the horizon and am ready to spend money :>) ......DaveB


Dave, you've *totally* missed the point of what Ben was trying to say. He's already addressed that so I won't rehash it.

scaro wrote:On30 and NZ120 = chassis/track already there + limited proto range + limited era = critical mass
american TT = chassis/track not there + broad proto range + broad range of era = madwoman's breakfast


Why a madwoman's breakfast?
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Re: Huge gathering of TT-scalers in California!!!

Postby ctxmf74 » Thu Mar 27, 2014 6:23 pm

"all you have done is recommend the status quo. you know, the one where we don't have lots of GP9s and freight cars? yeah, that one."

You seem to be the one recommending it, I'm totally against it and lobbying for what the other less perfectly sized scales already have. It's an awfully low goal to want TT to become like some obscure NZ scale with 25 modelers interested in it. I want TT to become mainstream so hate me for that if you want but don't try to put words in my mouth. The status quo sucks and I've never recommended it.....DaveB
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Re: Huge gathering of TT-scalers in California!!!

Postby scaro » Thu Mar 27, 2014 7:24 pm

Marquette wrote:
Why a madwoman's breakfast?


Australian expression. There's a more scatological version, but I've tried to be family friendly. Think they all emanate from the care industry, as another version is 'all over the place like a madwoman's custard.' which they often feed to patients in care homes.
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Re: Huge gathering of TT-scalers in California!!!

Postby Marquette » Thu Mar 27, 2014 9:38 pm

ctxmf74 wrote:"all you have done is recommend the status quo. you know, the one where we don't have lots of GP9s and freight cars? yeah, that one."

You seem to be the one recommending it, I'm totally against it and lobbying for what the other less perfectly sized scales already have. It's an awfully low goal to want TT to become like some obscure NZ scale with 25 modelers interested in it.


I think you're still misunderstanding, though.

And on the contrary: what *my* wish is - to have TT eventually be the most overally *accurate* scale - is probably a very (too?) high goal. Because ideally, we'd reach a point where we don't necessarily have the biggest selection of product, but we know that what we *do* have available is well-researched and reasonably accurate.

I want TT to become mainstream so hate me for that if you want but don't try to put words in my mouth. The status quo sucks and I've never recommended it.....DaveB


Yeah, we get that, but, despite all the reasoning and examples we've given, is extremely unlikely to happen, at least not in the next 10-15 years. If it *does* happen within the next 20-25, it will be by way of the sort of thing Ben or I have been suggesting.

Just look at Germany... how much has TT expanded into West Germany in 25 years?

scaro wrote:
Marquette wrote:
Why a madwoman's breakfast?


Australian expression. There's a more scatological version, but I've tried to be family friendly. Think they all emanate from the care industry, as another version is 'all over the place like a madwoman's custard.' which they often feed to patients in care homes.


Okay, but why a mad *woman's* breakfast?
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Re: Huge gathering of TT-scalers in California!!!

Postby ConducTTor » Fri Mar 28, 2014 12:39 am

Guys, the argument you've been having has already been had many times over.

The truth is very simple. There is next to nothing. To make something out of nothing, either we ALL agree on one specific thing and pursue it (never going to happen) or we continue as we have. Meaning, everyone contribute in whatever way they can and let's see where it goes. We've been doing that for 4 years now and I think a LOT has been accomplished in that short time.

So, build for yourself if you want and maybe make a few extras you can offer to others. Or take a chance and try to do something in a medium or large scale.

Or, simply be supportive of what others are doing. And that doesn't mean break the bank to buy every single thing that someone offers. Do what you can. If nothing else, cheer people's projects and successes on.

And when promoting the scale always discuss what we HAVE. Not what we don't.

All the ifs whats and maybes are getting exactly zero done.
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Re: Huge gathering of TT-scalers in California!!!

Postby ctxmf74 » Fri Mar 28, 2014 1:06 am

"We've been doing that for 4 years now and I think a LOT has been accomplished in that short time.'

and we owe much of the new product to you for starting the ball rolling with your shapeways cars. That took a lot of work and I thank you for it every time I look at my little cement hopper :>) ...DaveB
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Re: Huge gathering of TT-scalers in California!!!

Postby ConducTTor » Fri Mar 28, 2014 1:28 am

Thanks man!

:)
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Re: Huge gathering of TT-scalers in California!!!

Postby areibel » Fri Mar 28, 2014 7:49 am

ctxmf74 wrote: and we owe much of the new product to you for starting the ball rolling with your shapeways cars. That took a lot of work and I thank you for it every time I look at my little cement hopper :>) ...DaveB


+1 on that for sure!
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