HP Catalogue 1948

Re: HP Catalogue 1948

Postby j p » Tue Jun 17, 2014 3:58 am

areibel wrote:There wasn't a real catalog until 1948, like Milwrd1 has said in an earlier post. According to Larry Sayre there were a some papers that were sent around to hobby shops showing the line, about the same time the ads started appearing in MR and RMC but the first catalog is the one Rob has posted here. What is the special model you have? From the research I've done the only locomotive model that was made but isn't shown in a catalog were the early 2-8-8-2's with the small drivers.


Then it must have been in the papers sent to the shops?
It is 4-6-2 made of brass and (according to John Harmon) it was a pre-production model and its photo was in "1946 catalogue", e.g. in some of those papers sent to the shops.
It has pre-war style driver wheels and a small diameter worm.
If it was really shown in some of those papers, it would date it to 1940-1945.

brass462_1.jpg

brass462_2.jpg
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Re: HP Catalogue 1948

Postby Arseny » Tue Jun 17, 2014 7:34 am

Are you sure it is HP's production in fact?
I doubt.
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Re: HP Catalogue 1948

Postby areibel » Tue Jun 17, 2014 8:59 am

It looks more like a scratchbuilt Pacific that used a few HP parts. It looks like the pilot wheels and the smokestack are HP, but everything else is different. What diameter are the drivers? And it has valve gear, none of the other early HP locos had it.

The tender looks like a 5000 tender but it has the passenger car trucks and it looks like it's all brass construction. Is the body the same size as a 5000?

It's an odd one, that's for sure! Maybe Milwrd1 or TTTerrific or some of the other guys familiar with "classic" American TT has heard something about it, but I'm not sure what it is.
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Re: HP Catalogue 1948

Postby j p » Tue Jun 17, 2014 10:00 am

areibel wrote:It looks more like a scratchbuilt Pacific that used a few HP parts. It looks like the pilot wheels and the smokestack are HP, but everything else is different. What diameter are the drivers? And it has valve gear, none of the other early HP locos had it.

The tender looks like a 5000 tender but it has the passenger car trucks and it looks like it's all brass construction. Is the body the same size as a 5000?

It's an odd one, that's for sure! Maybe Milwrd1 or TTTerrific or some of the other guys familiar with "classic" American TT has heard something about it, but I'm not sure what it is.


No, it is not supposed to have any standard HP parts if it was made before HP started the business (except for the motor).
If it was scratch built later using HP parts then I would expect the same worm as on HP. The small worm gear makes it run too fast.
The trucks on the tender are HP - but those could have been added later. The valve gear is also very different from what HP made in serial production.
Of course, I am not sure. If I was sure, I'd not ask :lol:
If this was really shown in on of those HP papers then it is HP (or rather Hal Joyce) for sure. If that cannot be confirmed then it will just remain a mystery.

I compared the tenders with this result:
It is built exactly the same way as 5000 tender but it is slightly shorter. The details are different. That could support the pre-production model. E.g. serial produced 5000 kit could be made after this, just longer. It does not have any cast parts. Molds for casting would be too expensive for a single engine. If the tender was made out of the 5000 kit by shortening it, it could have the cast bottom also shortened (which is not the case)
brass462_3.jpg
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Re: HP Catalogue 1948

Postby areibel » Tue Jun 17, 2014 3:35 pm

If the tender is not a 5000, I'd say it was just a nicely scratchbuilt TT model from the late 40's or early 50's. I don't know how you would ever prove it came from HP, other than the passenger car trucks?
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Re: HP Catalogue 1948

Postby j p » Tue Jun 17, 2014 4:00 pm

areibel wrote:If the tender is not a 5000, I'd say it was just a nicely scratchbuilt TT model from the late 40's or early 50's. I don't know how you would ever prove it came from HP, other than the passenger car trucks?


The picture of it in HP's paper would prove it. That is what John said about it. Without the paper it is just a scratch built model of unknown origin.

I opened it and found the drive inside is HP design just made of different components. All the screws are at the corresponding positions as on HP serial models. There was no signature of Hal Joyce inside though. :doh:
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Re: HP Catalogue 1948:helps date my diesel

Postby D Martin » Tue Jun 17, 2014 10:57 pm

IMG_2769-grey-on-brown-E-side.JPG
showing positioning of screened openings on later and earlier production
Hi,all:
The Model Railroader ad from 1946 helps me date my HP E-unit! The ad shows an "engineering sketch" or drawing of the E unit of (I assume) that time period. I have several HP E units with slight differences. I am attaching a photo I made a few hours ago of two HP E-A units. The gunmetal grey unit is still the way I bought it as New-Old-Stock from a hobby shop in 1977. The brown/orange/yellow unit I bought used around 1966. (The yellow tape was an experiment). A difference in the two models can be seen easily. Both have the (standard) three screened openings on each side. On each body, there is assumed to be a cab door with a vertical grab iron on each side and punched-out window in the cab door. On the brown/orange unit, the first screened opening is immediately behind the cab door and grab iron. On the grey unit, the first screened opening is three feet from the door window, or about two feet from the grab iron. The second screened opening is also located differently on the two units. Notice E units have a door in the middle of the body, above the fuel tank. This is a low door, and indicated on the models only by a pair of vertical grab irons. On my grey unit, the holes for the grab irons are below the bottom of the screened opening. On the Brown/orange unit, since the screened opening is farther forward, the grab irons are taller and come up behind the screened opening.
The ad from MR in 1946 shows the first screened opening close to the cab door, and the short or "low-rise" grab irons under the second screened opening, not behind it. So my brown/orange/yellow unit must have been early production from 1946 until possibly 1955. I have a 1956 catalog showing the screened opening moved back away from the cab door and therefore having the short ("midships") door grab irons.

D. Martin in W. Tennessee
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Re: HP Catalogue 1948

Postby milwrd1 » Thu Jun 19, 2014 4:14 pm

j p wrote:I have a different question: does anyone have a 1946 catalogue? I was told that one of the models I bought some time ago was shown only in that catalogue. I would like to get it confirmed :wink:
It would help me to get the history of that one early-TT engine correct.
Please pm if you can help in this. Thank you!


Sorry for the delay in posting, but I've been very busy outside with the nice weather. I really don't believe there was a 1946 catalog. I was going to post a photo of the first TT scale advertisement in Model Railroader from October 1946, but Arseny beat me to it. Thanks!!

I did check my TT scale my files and found that the earliest dated HP piece of paper I have is dated July 15, 1947. No pictures are shown on this, just a listing of the available products, part/kit number and the price. Price listed is retail. It is called a "Price List". Even without the date I know it is very early HP, since it lists the early 600 series freight coupler. Picture to follow when I get a chance!!
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Re: HP Catalogue 1948

Postby milwrd1 » Thu Jun 19, 2014 4:17 pm

areibel wrote: From the research I've done the only locomotive model that was made but isn't shown in a catalog were the early 2-8-8-2's with the small drivers.


This does mean the 2-8-8-2 came first came with small drivers and a later run produced a kit with larger drivers? Very interesting.
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Re: HP Catalogue 1948

Postby milwrd1 » Thu Jun 19, 2014 4:23 pm

j p wrote:
areibel wrote:There wasn't a real catalog until 1948, like Milwrd1 has said in an earlier post. According to Larry Sayre there were a some papers that were sent around to hobby shops showing the line, about the same time the ads started appearing in MR and RMC but the first catalog is the one Rob has posted here. What is the special model you have? From the research I've done the only locomotive model that was made but isn't shown in a catalog were the early 2-8-8-2's with the small drivers.


Then it must have been in the papers sent to the shops?
It is 4-6-2 made of brass and (according to John Harmon) it was a pre-production model and its photo was in "1946 catalogue", e.g. in some of those papers sent to the shops.
It has pre-war style driver wheels and a small diameter worm.
If it was really shown in some of those papers, it would date it to 1940-1945.

brass462_1.jpg

brass462_2.jpg


This could be an early pre-production model (pre 1946) built by Hal Joyce. This is a complete guess on my part. What is the boiler diameter at the smoke box? Is it larger or smaller that the cast boiler used on the 4-6-2 Pacific??
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