HP 4-6-2 project

Re: HP 4-6-2 project

Postby AstroGoat760 » Thu Dec 14, 2017 3:28 pm

dileTTante,

Out of curiosity, how has your 4-6-2 project worked out in the medium-term?
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Re: HP 4-6-2 project

Postby dileTTante » Thu Dec 14, 2017 8:22 pm

Thanks for asking.

The locomotive seized up at our exhibit in August because the crank arm on the driver actuating the valve gear worked loose and the rods jammed.

At the next exhibit the loco didn't run at all because the decoder had burned out. During repairs a wire to the clips which I put on the motor brushes broke off. I soldered the wires to the brush springs and made a plug and socket for easier disconnect from the tender. All this work pretty much ruined the paint job and I have to re-do that.

At the show in October the loco ran with a new decoder but didn't like the curves on the layout and didn't like some of the turnouts.

I don't know how others manage with these HP locomotives. The middle drivers have no flanges, so the loco can handle curves. My theory is that the wheel base between the flanges on the front and rear drivers is too long for sharp curves. And/or the flanges do not have a good contour for curves.

I had similar problems with the HP diesel. The middle wheels of the trucks have no flanges but the overall wheel base of the truck is long and when running at a show one set of wheels worked out of gauge from negotiating the curves. Also the sharp curves make the motor gear rub against the body.

I bought these HP locomotives to have N. American alternatives to the SW1200s at train shows. The 4-6-2 has good proportions, looks good at the shows and gets favourable response. But it hasn't given a good return for all the time and money spent. When I get some enthusiasm for the job, the loco will have to come apart for repainting. The locomotive runs fine on DCC.

As an aside, it's not only the HP locos fighting the curves. My Roco BR44 with five driver axles had the pins for the connecting rods work out of the wheels after sustained running, and it seized up. The axles have lateral play to take the curves but the side to side movement pulled out the rods from the wheels. I no longer run the German goods locos, all of them having five sets of drivers. Fortunately Bill Dixon is sympathetic and has been trying to make TTTracks modules with larger curves. Probably it's simpler just to run only the models that work.

-Terry C
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Re: HP 4-6-2 project

Postby AstroGoat760 » Thu Dec 14, 2017 9:23 pm

dileTTante wrote:Thanks for asking.

The locomotive seized up at our exhibit in August because the crank arm on the driver actuating the valve gear worked loose and the rods jammed.

At the next exhibit the loco didn't run at all because the decoder had burned out. During repairs a wire to the clips which I put on the motor brushes broke off. I soldered the wires to the brush springs and made a plug and socket for easier disconnect from the tender. All this work pretty much ruined the paint job and I have to re-do that.

At the show in October the loco ran with a new decoder but didn't like the curves on the layout and didn't like some of the turnouts.

I don't know how others manage with these HP locomotives. The middle drivers have no flanges, so the loco can handle curves. My theory is that the wheel base between the flanges on the front and rear drivers is too long for sharp curves. And/or the flanges do not have a good contour for curves.

I had similar problems with the HP diesel. The middle wheels of the trucks have no flanges but the overall wheel base of the truck is long and when running at a show one set of wheels worked out of gauge from negotiating the curves. Also the sharp curves make the motor gear rub against the body.

I bought these HP locomotives to have N. American alternatives to the SW1200s at train shows. The 4-6-2 has good proportions, looks good at the shows and gets favourable response. But it hasn't given a good return for all the time and money spent. When I get some enthusiasm for the job, the loco will have to come apart for repainting. The locomotive runs fine on DCC.

As an aside, it's not only the HP locos fighting the curves. My Roco BR44 with five driver axles had the pins for the connecting rods work out of the wheels after sustained running, and it seized up. The axles have lateral play to take the curves but the side to side movement pulled out the rods from the wheels. I no longer run the German goods locos, all of them having five sets of drivers. Fortunately Bill Dixon is sympathetic and has been trying to make TTTracks modules with larger curves. Probably it's simpler just to run only the models that work.

-Terry C

Strange, all of my HP diesels have flanges on all axles. I have had few issues asides from having to replace the wire connecting the front and rear trucks, and the paint job, my primary HP E-7 has required very little work.

I would agree that with tighter curves, that it is a good idea to run only the models that can handle them easily, to avoid problems.

For me, this is all another reason for my impending shift to Keuhn tracks versus Tillig Advanced track: the smallest radii for Keuhn is wider than Tillig, so less temptation to try to make as much fit into a small space such that everything can handle it.

Of course, I will keep my 3' x 4' module with the Tillig Bedding track, as most everything I have runs nicely on it, in particular my HP 2-8-0s and 0-6-0s, as well as my Tri-Ang British TT trains as well, with notable exception of my Rokal equipment, but that is for another topic.

I feel bad for all the hard work that was poured into the 4-6-2 project, if there is anything I can do for help/advice, I will do so to the best of my ability.
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Re: HP 4-6-2 project

Postby dileTTante » Wed Jan 15, 2020 9:06 am

As a follow up, this locomotive turned into a success. It ran for three hours continuously at train shows last year. It needs repainting and it needs periodic checks for possible loosening running gear but otherwise is reliable. Conversion to DCC is simple as shown in the diagram. It works.
- Terry C
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Re: HP 4-6-2 project

Postby AstroGoat760 » Wed Jan 15, 2020 9:20 am

That is good to hear. I am currently working on a HP 4-6-2, and as part of the "shakedown cruise", it ran for 6 hours straight, following inspection and full lubrication. No issues noted, other than just needing to complete cosmetic work.

The larger HP Locos (basically anything other than the small x-6-x or x-8-x locos) are a fair bit forgiving of slop in my opinion, which makes them easier to work with.
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Re: HP 4-6-2 project

Postby Murad » Wed Jan 15, 2020 5:39 pm

What decoder did you use in this locomotive? I've found 2amp peak LaisDCC decoder that should easily fit HP tender. Hope it will be enough!
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Re: HP 4-6-2 project

Postby dileTTante » Wed Jan 15, 2020 7:25 pm

Originally I tried a Digitrax DN143, I think it was. Easy to fit in the tender, rated at 1.25 amp - 2 Amp peak. However it overloaded easily and shut down often. I am not familiar with Lais decoders. It looks like a convenient size but I wouldn't be surprised if your motor overloads the decoder. Maybe your new magnets will help. Please let us know how it all turns out.

Now I have an NCE HO decoder (13s) in the 4-6-2. It is not rated any better than the others but it doesn't overload and shut down. It is larger and requires more room in the tender. Also, a few NCE decoders which I bought turned out to be defective in speed control, so I won't buy any more.

My opinion is that HP locos need HO decoders not N scale decoders.

- Terry C
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Re: HP 4-6-2 project

Postby milwrd1 » Thu Jan 16, 2020 5:43 pm

dileTTante wrote:As a follow up, this locomotive turned into a success. It ran for three hours continuously at train shows last year. It needs repainting and it needs periodic checks for possible loosening running gear but otherwise is reliable. Conversion to DCC is simple as shown in the diagram. It works.
- Terry C


Terry

If I'm reading your diagram correctly (diagram attached to entry dated 1/15/20), top drawing shows "top" brush connected to the motor frame / Right side Drivers, bottom drawing shows "top" brush isolated from the motor frame / Right side Drivers. Is this correct?

Isolating the brush from the motor frame shouldn't be to difficult, a piece of electrical tape placed between the motor brush and the frame should provide sufficient insulation, if I remember the HP loco electrical configuration correctly. How did you isolate the motor brush from the motor frame??
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Re: HP 4-6-2 project

Postby dileTTante » Thu Jan 16, 2020 10:01 pm

The two motors which I have from HP locos - one steam, one diesel - are configured the same way. I assumed all the motors were made the same. Perhaps I am wrong. On my motors the brushes are both held in a single piece of fibre board which insulates them from the motor frame. This is shown in the two photos attached which were made when I was first working on the model.

Early on, when the decoder was constantly shutting down from overload, I thought at first that there was a short circuit occurring somewhere and I made a great effort to cure that. So in the photo where the motor is out you can see that I put some insulating material (heat shrink) on the motor to make sure the brush springs weren't touching the frame. It may be that in some models the short circuit in one brush is allowed to happen in order to feed track power to the brush. I think that is unlikely.

I was being paranoid about insulation at the time but it appears to me that under normal conditions the brush springs do not touch the frame. On the original models there had been nothing extra done to isolate the other brush from the frame - the brush which was connected to the tender wheel pickup.

At any rate, on my models the brush on one side was connected to the motor frame by a wire.

The photo also shows that I used the screw for the brush holder as a connecting point to get track power from the motor frame back to the decoder. The two brushes being isolated, are connected directly to the decoder.

- Terry C

- Edit -- The photo further back of D Martin's 10 wheeler shows a different arrangement for the motor brushes, so this and my lack of experience will account for the confusion. My apologies.
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