German Prototype Eras?

Re: German Prototype Eras?

Postby Zs12 » Mon Mar 26, 2012 5:10 am

Christtking wrote:... I think they should have leave it the way it was.

No, that makes sense! During the Cold War period and earlier, only freight and passenger wagons usually crossed national borders. Locomotives and railcars/MU's regularly operated on their specific rail net and outside as short as possible - it was too expensive and the state railways did not like that. So the UIC established a unique numbering scheme, which the national railways only applied to their wagon fleet. There was no need to do this with the motorised equipment, for example MOW machines. But since 1990, since many new private railways were founded in Europe and many of them - also the former state railways - began to operate throughout Europe with an ever-changing equipment, it was necessary to adapt the UIC numbering scheme to the whole fleet.
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Re: German Prototype Eras?

Postby j p » Wed Apr 11, 2012 3:49 pm

Marquette wrote: of why the German era-system really should only be used for German models...


I don't agree with this. I would reformulate it: of why the German era-system really should only be used for German layouts
It is important to indicate the era also for the other countries. Simply because the cars were able to cross the borders and a French car can be easily found in Germany. Sometimes, the era indication is not enough though. If you want to combine the cars from different European countries, they should fit into the same period - not like the Tillig's set of 3 tank cars, where one was DSB era II - III, one was DB era III and one was era II BMB-CMD 1939-1945. As you can see, sometimes it is not enough to specify only the era. In case of the last car the railroad existed only for 6 years within the era II. I still don't understand Tillig's motivation for making a single BMB-CMD car. They don't make any locomotives or other cars of that railroad and the number of people having a BMB-CMD layout is probably very limited. Perhaps it was either supposed to be used as a foreign car on DRG WW2-layouts ... or a CSD car and Tillig could not find a CSD photo and messed up the texts by using a WW2 photo of the car.

When using the eras for other European countries, the number of RTR models available is so limited that it is acceptable to combine two eras but at the same time try to avoid impossible combinations (such as the one mentioned above)
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Re: German Prototype Eras?

Postby ConducTTor » Wed Apr 11, 2012 4:00 pm

j p wrote:I still don't understand Tillig's motivation for making a single BMB-CMD car. They don't make any locomotives or other cars of that railroad and the number of people having a BMB-CMD layout is probably very limited.


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Re: German Prototype Eras?

Postby LVG1 » Wed Aug 08, 2012 6:18 pm

areibel wrote:Can anyone explain the different Eras or Epochs of the German railroads? I see a lot that look like the same locomotive in a different paint, are there actual cut off dates for each Epoch?


The eras of European railroads have been normed by MOROP (http://www.morop.org/en/idf/index.html).
They are laid down in NEM (Norms of European Modell Railways) 800 ... 825.
NEM 800 (effective 2007) describes several indicators for the various eras. But the indicators usually used are following:
era I—until World War I
era II—from World War I to World War II
era III—from World War II to the introduction of UIC-designation and -numbering systems for cars
era IV—until the fall of the Iron Curtain and the liberalization of the railway market in the European Union
era V—until the reform of UIC-labeling system (inclusion of locomotives, breakdown of the owner's label into nation + owner's label)
era VI—present
Additionally, NEM 800 marks concrete years including transition periods. But they are only for rough orientation:
era I—until 1925
era II—1920 ... 1950
era III—1945 ... 1970
era IV—1965 ... 1990
era V—1985 ... 2010
era VI—since 2005
And these eras are valid for all European railroads.

Eras are subdivided into periods. But these periods are valid for a particular country only; so (almost) every country has its own norm for periods. For Germany it's NEM 806 D (effective 2008):
era I (1835 ... 1920):
    period a (1835 ... 1875)—first railways
    period b (1875 ... 1895)—creation of the large state railway networks
    period c (1895 ... 1910)—reorganizantion of the state railways; first standardizations (signals and so on); 4-axle cars in considerable quantity
    period d (1910 ... 1920)—stagnation; standardized freight cars; World War I
era II (1920 ... 1950):
    period a (1920 ... 1925)—state railways become property of the German Empire
    period b (1925 ... 1937)—Deutsche Reichsbahn operated like public company (but still owned by the German Empire)
    period c (1937 ... 1950)—transformation of Deutsche Reichsbahn into authority-operated railway; World War II
era III (1949 ... 1970):
    period a (1949 ... 1956)—3 classes system
    period b (1956 ... 1970)—2 classes system; new numbering system for cars in the GDR (from 1958 on)
era IV (1965 ... 1990):
    period a (1965 ... 1970)—new UIC-designation and -numbering systems for cars
    period b (1970 ... 1980)—attempt with new liveries for vehicles; in western Germany new high-quality train-network called "InterCity"
    period c (1980 ... 1990)—new liveries
era V (since 1990):
    period a (1990 ... 1994)—transition era from 2 to 1 national railroad
    period b (1994 ... 2000)—Deutsche Bahn AG founded
    period c (2000 ... 2006)—commuter traffic (almost) only operated by MU's and push-pull trains; double-decker cars become standard on main lines
era VI (since 2007):
    no periods determined, yet

Marquette wrote:
Arseny wrote:The difference betweed 3 and 4 eras is the numeration scheme of wagons and locomotives, not only InterCity :)


I thought this was IIIa and IIIb - I know I've seen models with the computer-numbers, marked era III (and IIIb - I especially have the big D-D diesel in mind V188/BR 288)...


You can either call your source "unreliable" or you can attribute it to the openness to interpretation.
The time when the locomotives got their new numbers belongs to era III and era IV as well (1965 ... 1970).

The UIC-systems of designation and numbering of cars became effective January 1, 1966. But the railroads adopted them at different times between 1966 and roughly 1970. DR started using them from the beginning on. For DB the sources disagree; some say DB also have used them since 1966; some say they used them from 1968 on. But several railroads started later. Soviet railways used the UIC-systems only on cars which were intended to be used on UIC railroads which were not ОСЖД (OSJD) members.

Only few railroads reorganized their numbering systems for locomotives at the same time, too. DB started with their new numbers on January 1, 1968; DR on June 1, 1970. Another railroad was SNCB/NMBS (1971 I think, but I'm not sure).

Of course, they needed years for the renumbering of their entire fleets.

Arseny wrote:Sometimes ago the JATT company suggested Era VI: 1994-...


During the 1990ies several modell railroad manufacturers "invented" their own eras and interpreted NEM 800 differently. What you describe is a good example.
But this manner is rather confusing than helpful for users. That's why MOROP transformed NEM 800 from a recommendation into a binding norm.

Arseny wrote:the West Germany's DB and GDR's DR started in 1949, not 1950. So the 3rd era started in 1949.

The DRG used "DR" logo too, since 1943 (!)


"GDR's DR" did not start in 1949.
And "DRG" has never been an official abbreviation.

During GDR times the legal status of DR stayed untouched; until October 3, 1990 it stayed the national railroad of the German Empire which it had been since the 1920ies. So Deutsche Reichsbahn is exactly the same organization in eras II, III and IV.
By the way: the operation in West-Berlin was not the only reason for keeping DR what it had been. In 1949 DB bogarted the entire foreign assets of DR. Keeping DR's legal status was neccessary to demand their share back from DB. But unfortunately, DR never got what they were entitled to.

In the early years they avoided abbreviations of the name "Deutsche Reichsbahn" as far as possible. But in the few cases making abbreviating neccessary the abbreviation was "DR" from the beginning.
The abbreviations "DRG" and "DRB" have been "invented" years later; they are not contemporary.
"DRG" arose in the 1960ies or 1970ies when the modell railroad manufacturers wanted a simple distinction between pre-war and post-war DR.
"DRB" was first found in the 1990ies when some freaks came by the idea that "DRG" would not fit the post-1937 DR because the complete name had changed from "Deutsche Reichsbahn-Gesellschaft" to "Deutsche Reichsbahn" that year.
But the only correct abbreviation has always been "DR".

ConducTTor wrote:
j p wrote:I still don't understand Tillig's motivation for making a single BMB-CMD car. They don't make any locomotives or other cars of that railroad and the number of people having a BMB-CMD layout is probably very limited.


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I absolutely agree.
About 80 % of all modell locomotives are sold to collectors. The figures for cars are not that high, but the figure should make clear the importance of collectors for modell railroad manufacturers. And that's the reason why they relatively often offer modells which can hardly be used on layouts which orientate to specific times and regions, respectively.
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Re: German Prototype Eras?

Postby LVG1 » Sun Feb 03, 2013 11:26 am

Christtking wrote:So the new numbering system of era VI is kind of going back and stealing or using the idea previously used on the passenger cars during era IV, in other words making it more complicated, I think they should have leave it the way it was.


No, it's not going back.
And the idea is not stolen.

Already in the 1960'ies they created the international numbering norm in a way that it also included locomotives. But because that time locomotives stayed on their owners' tracks, there was no neccessity for an internationally valid number. So it was not realized—except for very, very few locomotives which got these numbers to test their advantage.
So the new numbering now is only the result of what was started in the 1960'ies.

By the way:
The advantage of the standardized numbers is not that they will always stay the same—indepentently of the owner. They can change, absolutely.
The advantage is the internationality. With these numbers it's impossible that two vehicles of different countries could have the same number. So all vehicles are internationally identifyable.
And because that's only useful for vehicles which (at least theoretically) can be used internationally, narrow gauge vehicles are excluded from this numbering standard. (Only Poland has numbers for their narrow gauge cars which are very, very similar to the UIC numbers.)
Last edited by LVG1 on Sun Feb 03, 2013 2:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: German Prototype Eras?

Postby Christtking » Sun Feb 03, 2013 2:34 pm

LVG1: I understand, it's a method, a process, it works only if you follow the procedures. Good example in communism (e.g Hungary or Poland), do you think everything was up to date (especially in the parts of the country where they did not have any computers, most of the time clipboards and pencils were used) and I bet you in some areas they still use the old fasioned way, those old procedues because that's the way the workers have been trained, they adapted to those, it works or it does not, they don't really care as long as they get paid and as long they are still employed. That's my point of view from personal experiences.
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Re: German Prototype Eras?

Postby LVG1 » Sun Feb 03, 2013 3:54 pm

Modernization at railroads is a continuing process. There are neither enough money, nor enough production capacities to install more modern features at any place at the same time. Especially the (former) national railroads simply are too large organizations for that.
It's something different with small railroads. So, for instance, CFL of Luxembourg was the first railroad which had completely changed their safety system into the new European ETCS standard. But doing that in such short time is a way too big task for large railroads.

Meanwhile computers are a common sight everywhere. I guess, railroads' operating points without computers are very rare, nowadays—all over Europe. But also with "clipboards and pencils" the same numbers have to be used which are also valid elsewhere because communication wouldn't work otherwise. So, this is no reason for a refusal to change to a more up-to-date numbering system.

Christtking wrote:... because that's the way the workers have been trained, they adapted to those, it works or it does not, they don't really care as long as they get paid and as long they are still employed. That's my point of view from personal experiences.


Railroads are one of those industries in Europe where employees are trained regularly so that they are up-to-date and can handle the modern features used. So, I would not agree that it's that simple.
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Re: German Prototype Eras?

Postby Christtking » Sun Feb 03, 2013 6:10 pm

I totally agree with you! We all are aware of that these things did not happen over night, and not everything it's perfect. We all make mistakes, that's what humans tend to do. Everything has a solution after all.
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