German loft layout

Re: German loft layout

Postby ConducTTor » Mon Jun 17, 2013 12:46 pm

Well, sort of. You would still be doing it in the area of the station though where it belongs. Your suggestion would move it to the other side of the tunnel (mountain) which is kind of strange.
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Re: German loft layout

Postby CSD » Mon Jun 17, 2013 2:35 pm

I don't actually propose to move anything, just add a couple more crossovers. For example: If left as is, a train shunting on the departure track would block all departures from the station. The arrival track could not be used for departures in this case as there is no crossover past the throught of the station to go back to the departure track. With the additional crossover at the other end and bi-directional movement, the arrival track could be used for departures as, when exiting to the main line loop, the train would be able to cross back to the departure track. So, looking at the attached picture, if the orange line represents wagons being shunted out of the station, all outbound traffic is blocked. However, with the additional crossovers tracks 1, 2 and 3 can continue with arrivals and departures.
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Re: German loft layout

Postby MacG » Mon Jun 17, 2013 3:25 pm

@CSD: There will be no train shunting, exept on steam tracks. A incoming train get a new loco for outbound. Then is the old loco free and drive to the maintenance facility.

@Juup: I have re sketch it with Wintrack. You have really enough space for turnout number 3. :thumbup:

I have added a second way to get to the waiting spot (with a number 2 turnout).

Between turnout with direction change must be a straight track (blue). It is more prototypically. With the distance between rail mid I have some trouble (red). What distance you are use at the platforms and at transfer table?

I find the diesel station has not the best place. Only one track for fueling and the refueling with a tank car.

I think the Köf had no own shed at this era. The left part of Köf track can be used perhaps for a tank car?

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Re: German loft layout

Postby Juup » Mon Jun 17, 2013 4:43 pm

I understand CSDs suggestion. The crossovers could be located before after or inside the tunnel ... doesn't really matter just as long as the distance between the other turn-outs of the main station and the extra set of cross overs is long enough to shunt a set of passenger cars. The exact start and end of the tunnel could be adjusted as well. The 'merry-go-round mainline itself is not affected. However, with no sidings to store passenger cars, this would only really be good to shunt passenger stock from one platform track to another ... how often might I do this? Is it worth the gain when it (at least partially) constrains in and out-going traffic? It would add overall redundancy ... but two extra switches and two extra switch motors ... hmh.

MacG's suggestions need a bit more reflection. The gain of the direct route from the transfer table to the waiting track is obvious. Nice also because each loco slots into the back of the line of waiting locos. When considering this I need to space things out a little differently because the new track to the number 2 turnout runs awfully close to the corner of the shed. Also, transfer tables need a bit of room on either side ... will think about this some more.

Adding small straight segments between turn-outs where there is a direction change: Technically it is not necessary with number 3 turnouts ... have tested. Don't know about prototype well enough - I think I trust you when you say so :) So, needs some more thinking.

Thanks all for the further suggestions!!

For TT transfer table see:

http://www.aktt.de/nuernberg_2005/bild034.htm

Okay ... from Nürnberg 2005 :) If I look long enough on ebay? There have been a coupel of custom build TT transfer tables on ebay that didn't sell, so may come up up again. But yes, there is a chance that I have to convert from another scale or scratch build.

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Re: German loft layout

Postby MacG » Tue Jun 18, 2013 4:46 am

For transfer table see also: RBS-Modellbau.de.

At turnout number 3 it is technical needed between two tracks, but this raised the track mid distance. We have tested it on modules. You can straighten the branching part, but then you must build the turnouts with the flexi-curved-turnout-kits. Btw, what is the distance at your tranfer table between the tracks, 43mm?

CSD suggest you four extra turnouts. It makes sense, but is expensive. I would placed it between station and tunnel. With two turnouts I would go from the lower to the inner track. The shunting of train is more on one of the tracks 4 to 7.
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Re: German loft layout

Postby Juup » Tue Jun 18, 2013 6:31 am

Super - thank you for the RBS Modellbau link!!

Okay, will have to do some more testing of the number 3 turnouts with direction change and long (220mm) passenger cars.

Oh, and comment about Diesel location and Kof shed also noted.

But I am getting closer :)

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Re: German loft layout

Postby MacG » Tue Jun 18, 2013 8:11 am

The blue straight track is not a must, it gives more safety. Between two tracks you have the same problem (see my last posting) You should drive carefully. It is near the station and there is already a speed limit.

Ah, you need a storage track for your crane ;)
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Re: German loft layout

Postby Juup » Fri Jun 21, 2013 9:27 am

An update, greatly benefiting from the super suggestions in this thread!

Main station: There is now a separate track for tank cars to supply diesel. There is an exit from the transfer table where locos can wait before getting into service. I suspect I have to scratch build the transfer table. The RBS one is neither the right length or width. The distance between track centres is 43mm minimum (mainline, platforms, and a few other places. Some places it is more than 43mm to accommodate various features such as catenary masts, signals, pits, and so on. The distance btw. track and problematic direction changes will have to be tested during construction. In the station area trains will drive v. slowly … except my son might get carried away … Oh, and there is a track for the ADP crane car :thumbup:

Now to the TTm gauge track on the top right – red colour. I am not sure whether to electrify this, or exactly how steep it will be. I am thinking a maximum of between 6 and 8 degrees over the bridge and the last bit up the mountain … with short trains (3-4 short passenger cars max). Want to achieve a somewhat dramatic effect, but without it becoming too ‘toy-like’. Definitively don’t want any cog system. With it being ‘tucked away’ at one end I hope it won’t compromise the flow of the more open design of the rest of the layout. But yes, need a way to turn trains around … I have added a second dual gauge track at the bottom of the line (the red track parallel to the blue mainline). I think this is workable, but need 2 (minimum) or 3 (better) locos to run one train set up and down the mountain.

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Re: German loft layout

Postby Juup » Fri Jun 21, 2013 10:23 am

And showing the hidden track - see attached. I have excluded the main station, mountain line and all terrain to make this more digestable. Gradients will be max 2.5% will allowances for gentle transitions. The pink track allows trains to change direction on the mainline. Once they have changed direction the bottom staging area becomes accessible, or trains can return to the main station. Minimum radius on the mainline is 439mm (hidden) and 800mm (visible), and I think I've incorporated at least a bit of easement everywhere. Have also avoided sudden direction changes as trains enter tunnels - hopefully making trains entering a tunnel in a natural 'straight' manner.

Goods trains will originate in the top staging area. They can travel on the mainline and after using the pink track to turn around can return to their staging area by way of the red dual TT/TTm line. Minimum radius entering this staging area is 396mm.

Does all this seem workable and sensible?

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Re: German loft layout

Postby Dibbedabb » Fri Jun 21, 2013 10:44 am

Please excuse me for painting in your image. I added a few arrows and a few numbers on tunnels.

I have a few things about the tracks and the plan outside the station.
First and most important: How do you plan to connect the tunnel tracks? Will you do A1-A1 and A2-A2 or will you connect A1-A2 twice making it a loop?
Because, if you connect A1-A1 and A2-A2, your trains will never "come back", after they left the station. Same with the freight trains. Please, follow the direction arrows :wink:

Next thing: I assume you would use right-hand traffic (as usual in Germany unlike most other European countries). That's how I inserted the direction arrows. This would mean you have to send your heavy freight trains coming from A2 crossing the main line through the small station on a dual gauge track (very unusual for a main track) up a steep hill to enter tunnel C, maybe without catenary, so limited to Diesel or steam trains. If you want this, fine, it's just a tip from my side. :smile:
Your small station's track plan now has it's continous main track heading back onto the main line, so freight trains heading for tunnel C have to use the secondary line exit of the turnout. I guess this is ok, but limits the train's speed.


Oh, I just saw you added your hidden tracks plan. Well, I see how you want to connect the tunnels. You have a loop :wink:
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