German loft layout

Re: German loft layout

Postby MacG » Sat Jun 15, 2013 4:30 pm

Dibbedabb wrote:Although there is a pull track now this can't be enough. If you pull a train out of a station track into this pull track, you have to wait, until the loco of the train has left the station, before you can shunt the train back into the station. For this time you block your shunting loco as it is stuck on the dead end of the pull track.


You must not pull a train out of the station, you need only two locos per train. By the way the loco from the departed train can used for the next train. My dad and I model a reversing station (Spitzkehrenbahnhof) without pulling tracks, because lack of space. Okay, we have one runaround track. This can everyone build with two additional turnouts.
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Re: German loft layout

Postby Dibbedabb » Sat Jun 15, 2013 7:19 pm

Of course you don't have to :wink:
But I think, there is a difference between a reversing station and a terminal station.
In a reversing station (as the name says) trains only reverse, so, you either need a second locomotive (or a push-pull train) or a track to run around the train, nothing more including any locomotive handling facilities.
In a terminal station trains often end, and they usually are taken care of, even if it's only cleaning, which you can't really do with a train being parked on a platform track. I don't mean the "cleaning" they do with regional trains on their last stop, when a guy walks through the train collecting the garbage more or less completely. I mean really cleaning, like washing or refilling water for the toilets.

If you leave a locomotive on the dead end of the platform until the train leaves the station with another locomotive, you would need a lot more locomotives in stock and stored on the station, because depending on the schedule a train might not leave the station within minutes after arrival. And if this is with 2 trains at the same time, you block a second locomotive at the same time. Now you need 2 locomotives stored in the station to take over the trains.
Then, after the train finally left and "released" the blocked locomotive, it still can't be used instantly, because it has to be refuelled or refilled with coal and water. So, you need a 3rd locomotive for the next train (and a 4th, and so on).
Please see my point: We talk on pages about the best track plan to have a safe position for a fuelling station away from steam/catenary/platform tracks or to put locomotive handling facilities without blocking incoming or leaving locomotives, aiming to make a realistic track plan for the depot, and then the rest is so much simplified? Kind of strange... :mrgreen:
Of course you don't need storage sidings, but the procedure described above seems to be quite unrealistic, because it's very uneconomical (which - in fact - isn't the most important issue for a model railroad, I admit :wink: )
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Re: German loft layout

Postby Juup » Sun Jun 16, 2013 7:57 pm

Hi Everyone,

Thank you ever so much for the wealth of information provided in this thread. I have spent some time working on a next version. I have been a bit delayed by work on the house, including also a couple of roof windows in the loft space to house the layout. Very nice. See attached photo in next posting. Getting close to insulating, dust-proofing etc this space.

The new plan – attached to this post:

A bit of info: Main interest is to run ‘long’ era IV electric passenger trains. The occasional steam service. Some goods trains which are not intended to enter the main station. In main station, only the blue track (and the small pink bit) will be electrified. Electric trains will use tracks 3-6; Steam will use tracks 1 and 2. Track 7 can be used for various special services. I will be using Tillig model track – mostly flex track. All turn-outs will be number 3 (gentlest available from Tillig) – exception is the transition btw. TT and TTm track on top right of layout (Number 2 TT/TTm switches are available to buy). Only thing I would need to scratch build is a few 24 degree crossovers. Expect to use Cobalt switch motors operated by switches on control panels. Trains will run on DCC.

Drawing on all the excellent advice in this thread, this is what I have been able to do:

Two ways of reaching the turntable. Turntable on same side as tracks (1 and 2) used by the steam. Coal, water and sand to serve both exit tracks; slag pit on both exits. Recovery loco track next to roundhouse. Short track dedicated to coal cars; have a special digger crane wagon to transfer coal from cars to coal facility – fun fun.

Roundhouse drawn to scale of Auhagen, so will have chimneys :)

Two ways of reaching the transfer table. Transfer table on same side as tracks (3-7) used by electric/diesel. Electric/diesel service area is ‘up front’ - good as this will see more action than the steam turntable. Diesel supply away from platforms, steam and electrified line. Sand and inspection pits for the diesel/electric. Separate track for Köf locos.

Space for a station building :)

Waiting track for electric locos (see pink track section) – works best for platform tracks 5, 6 and 7.

Main track is not used as entry to facilities. Except locos from tracks 3 and 4 (which are were the main tracks culminate), no loco will ever need to cross the main track on its way to or from services.

… and this is what I have compromised on:

‘Pull tracks’: Avoided to limited the overall number of tracks. I recognise Dibbledabb’s point about needing extra locos. I plan to have two locos for each passenger train. So an extra loco for the TEE train, for the Pop train, etc etc… plus a couple of BR218 diesel’s (red and blue liveries) as back up. I expect to have between 4 and 8 long trains active on the layout at any time. Probably need friends over for that :) Yes, arriving locos will be blocked until the train departs … but that loco isn’t needed again until this particular train returns, and that can be a while (mainline is a ‘merry-go-round’ and trains stop in underground staging (bottom of layout) to extend time between a train departing and arriving again. The same goes for steam trains, but will run no more than a couple of steam services (from tracks 1 and 2).

Sidings for passenger cars (point made about Hamburg Altona) are avoided. I could fit in one or two, but even that would be a compromise and it would get crowded. There is one siding for steam passenger cars along the wall because storing shorter steam trains in underground staging would be inefficient use of hidden track.

Redundancy: yes, there are several turn-outs which, if faulty, would bring the station to a halt. To achieve 100% redundancy would be almost impossible and create something incredibly complex, so I haven’t tried.

Btw. I am trying to avoid slip-switches (Smaller Tillig one has a too small radius and larger one is 15 degree rather than 12 degree geometry) and curved turn-outs (Tillig’s are very small radius).
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Re: German loft layout

Postby Juup » Sun Jun 16, 2013 7:59 pm

Attached the photo of the loft space :)
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Re: German loft layout

Postby ConducTTor » Mon Jun 17, 2013 12:12 am

I love it. Thanks to this topic I'm going to have to completely redesign my station..... :)
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Re: German loft layout

Postby Dibbedabb » Mon Jun 17, 2013 4:45 am

Hi Juup,

Thanks for attaching the new plan!
I like the idea of splitting up the service facilities!

Regarding the transfer table: Will you build it yourself? Because as far as I know there is none available in TT scale.
If you like the idea of avoiding tracks and having more locomotives, cool! It's your layout! More locomotives is always good! "Dear, I NEED this thing!!" :mrgreen:
By the way: I also like track plans with reasonable tracks. That's why I chose another main theme for my layout.

Tillig's curved turn-outs not only have a small radius, they're also of poor quality. I can only say to never ever use them, especially not in hidden areas. I have a lot of friends who have problems with locomotives stopping on these turnouts. Kühn's curved turnouts are quite nice, but not available until now, I think.
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Re: German loft layout

Postby MacG » Mon Jun 17, 2013 11:17 am

I would use the turnout number 2 for the station and/or maintenance tracks. For the mainline tracks the number 3. So you can use slip turnouts, like Tillig 83391, and crossings. And you have more track length. The maintenance pits for electric and diesel are at the shed. For steam you need it for slag and ash outside, for maintenance are inside the roundhouse.

You can model curved turnouts with flexi-curved-turnout-kit (number 2 Tillig 83420 and number 3 is 83421). So you can build each radius between a left and a right inside curved turnout. The flexi-curved-turnout-kit number 2 can have the same geometry like the inside curved turnouts (Tillig 83362 or 83361).

At the narrow gauge you need a runaround track on each station.
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Re: German loft layout

Postby CSD » Mon Jun 17, 2013 12:27 pm

Now, correct me if I'm wrong about station operations. If you added a set of switches to acomplish what I pencilled in where the station tracks leave the main and allocated those approach tracks to bi-directional running, could you not utilize one of them at times to shunt passenger cars without totally blocking traffic? Do I make sense?
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Re: German loft layout

Postby ConducTTor » Mon Jun 17, 2013 12:34 pm

Sure but you end up shunting on the main line.
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Re: German loft layout

Postby CSD » Mon Jun 17, 2013 12:42 pm

Unless I misunderstand, you end up doing that anyway. With the additional crossovers you have a way to go around.
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