Fowler type boxcars

Re: Fowler type boxcars

Postby Marquette » Wed Dec 05, 2012 9:23 am

scaro wrote:that said, i'm not sure i can see much, if any, difference between these and a fowler clone.

ben


That's because there probably isn't any readily visible difference. "Fowler patent" refers to a method of fastening the sheathing to the bracing, if I remember correctly. It was invented by a Canadian and was first used on the distinctive 36' single-sheathed boxcars of railways such as the CP and the predecessors of the CN (Grand Trunk, Intercolonial, Canadian Northern etc). These became known by modellers as "Fowler cars"; recently, though, modellers have started (somewhat more correctly) calling them "Dominion cars" - the bulk of them were made by Dominion Car & Foundry.

The term "Fowler car" then spread to any 36' single-sheathed car with a truss arrangement like on the DC&F-built cars made in/used in the US. And then, 40' single-sheathed boxcars with this truss arrangement began to be called "Fowler clones" or "40' Fowlers"...

...it's quite a mess, but the important thing to remember is that "Fowler" is generally just a catch-all term for single-sheathed boxcars with this particular truss arrangement.
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Re: Fowler type boxcars

Postby scaro » Wed Dec 05, 2012 9:28 am

yep, i amended my post ... as i'd like the guy who told me this to tell me what the differences are. if they are mainly internal, for example, they aren't going to worry anyone in TT much.
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Re: Fowler type boxcars

Postby scaro » Wed Dec 05, 2012 11:58 am

... he indicated that 'true fowler clones' typically had the same kind of end and that ends varied a lot more on the AC&F cars, roof and that truck spacing varied as between AC&F 'small road cars' and fowlers.

all these are things that could be altered using the gold coast kit. i wonder if it was a truism that if it was owned by a small, marginal road, it probably was one of the AC&F cars, though a few bigger RRs like C&EI and even the ATSF ended up with a few by sale or merger.

if it was owned by a big granger RR, it was more likely a fowler clone. westerfield's list of 40' fowler clone owners represents almost exclusively granger roads operating NW of chicago such as CNW, MStL, SOO, RI in addition to canadian RRs and D&RGW.

surprisingly, the RI ones had gone by the 1950s. maybe they weren't as poor as they made out.
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Re: Fowler type boxcars

Postby Richard-B » Thu Dec 06, 2012 1:18 pm

Marquette wrote:...it's quite a mess, but the important thing to remember is that "Fowler" is generally just a catch-all term for single-sheathed boxcars with this particular truss arrangement.


Ohhh... I'm not going to let you get away with that one!

There are many... many... variations of single-sheath cars, with Howe or Pratt truss, wide or narrow panels. It all matters!

BTW: Quick mnemonic for Howe and Pratt:
Look at the box car door: Do the trusses make an "M" around the door... or a "W" ???
The letter "M" is after "H"... = Howe
The letter "W" is after "P"... = Pratt

For instance: The Gold Coast single-sheath model is a Howe-truss Fowler clone...
but the AT&SF prototype cars were a Pratt-truss.
So... the ATSF "Fowler" is an absolute foobie.
AT&SF-124368 Bx-11_XM-SS_nmra-BobCharles0009.jpg
ATSF Bx-11 Pratt Truss (..."W" pattern)
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Re: Fowler type boxcars

Postby Richard-B » Thu Dec 06, 2012 1:24 pm

Re: Fowler (wide panels) vs. USRA (narrow panels)

D&RGW (the Gold Coast prototype)
D&RGW-66172 XM-SS-FowlerClone_-1941Whittaker.jpg
D&RGW Fowler Clone


D&H USRA box
D&H-17432 XM-SS_USRA-b1920_stmfc.jpg
D&H USRA single-sheathed box
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Re: Fowler type boxcars

Postby Marquette » Thu Dec 06, 2012 11:06 pm

I'd object:

Howe Truss (3 panel - door - 3 panel) = Fowler (clone)
Pratt Truss (3 panel - door - 3 panel) = 1923 ARA (clone)

So, when I said what I said - ""Fowler" is generally just a catch-all term for single-sheathed boxcars with this particular truss arrangement." - I said it on the assumption that 6-panel-plus-door s/s boxcars with Pratt Truss are not "Fowler" clones at all, but based on the 1923 ARA design.

Similarly, the USRA s/s design is Howe truss with 8 panels plus door; 8 panels plus door in Pratt truss arrangement is the War Emergency design.

There are many... many... variations of single-sheath cars, with Howe or Pratt truss, wide or narrow panels. It all matters!


I agree completely!
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Re: Fowler type boxcars

Postby scaro » Fri Dec 07, 2012 8:17 pm

Richard-B wrote:For instance: The Gold Coast single-sheath model is a Howe-truss Fowler clone...
but the AT&SF prototype cars were a Pratt-truss.
So... the ATSF "Fowler" is an absolute foobie.
AT&SF-124368 Bx-11_XM-SS_nmra-BobCharles0009.jpg


if it is an absolute foobie, i am not sure it is because the truss on the ATSF car is a pratt truss.

http://www.sunshinekits.com/sunimages/sun39a.pdf

there were ATSF howe truss single sheathed designs ... though whether they are close enough to be considered 'fowler clones' i don't know.

in my view, these howe truss designs look too different to the photo of the D&RGW car, which looks closest to the GC fowler clone. on the ATSF and other similar cars like the Ga & Fla ones, roof pitch seems steeper, bracing is more pronounced, and the small diagonal braces in the corners at the ends of the side walls do not come to a central point as they do - when they are there - on the 40' fowler clone.

ATSF only had 20 of these howe truss cars picked up when they bought a shortline, but within that small BX22 class you had both hutchins and radial roofs; they were in service till 1965.
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Re: Fowler type boxcars

Postby scaro » Sun Jan 20, 2013 10:59 am

Marquette wrote:The following car series can be modelled with the Gold Coast kit, with a slight modification to the ends; if you look at the posted photos, notice the extra angled braces on the ends - this is the major visual difference between the type represented by the GC car and these car series. There may be other smaller detail differences, too, but to get the correct visual appearance, the end is the minimum modification needed.

(snip)

Green Bay & Western GBW 6000-6298 (even numbers only)
GBW 6056.jpg


Milwaukee Road MILW 705000-710499
MILW 708858.jpg


Milwaukee Road MILW 711000-713989
MILW 711018 - 2.jpg


Something I should mention: most of these types entered service by the late 1920s, and most lasted into the late 1960s in revenue service. For some of these types I /do/ know more specific info, but as a general guide, you can use these cars anywhere from 1925-1965. :)
(snip)


i am working on one of these at the moment. in my opinion, at the very least, the height of the gold coast fowler is -i would say, obviously- visually wrong for a MILW or GBW car. i think the gold coast fowler is about 8' IH and these are 8'7". the other consideration is the roof , which has a few detail differences and the braces on these are cars are distinctively wedged at the ends. in all i think it adds up into a very different looking boxcar.

'Z' bracing is just about undoable in TT and that's the major concession, not that i think anyone would notice much.
scaro
 

Re: Fowler type boxcars

Postby scaro » Mon Feb 04, 2013 12:01 pm

Marquette wrote:The Gold Coast 40' Fowler kit can be used as-is for the following car series:

Chicago, Indianapolis & Louisville "Monon" CIL 2000-3600
CIL 3149.jpg




i searched high and low for references to this series. i'm newly interested in the C&EI and the monon was fairly close by, so if it rostered 40' fowlers, it would be handy. but i could only find this:

http://dir.groups.yahoo.com/group/ldsig/message/48241

were they 36'6" cars?
scaro
 

Re: Fowler type boxcars

Postby scaro » Mon Feb 25, 2013 10:12 am

more on fowlers, this was from the S scale list. very handy information.

the roads listed below are i believe the only railroads that originally owned 40' fowler or fowler clone cars.

'MR' is the mcloud river, a california shortline.

i don't know the details of the similar design rock island cars sold to the salzberg shortlines ... but these may have been the last ones in regular service, so details would be handy.

one salzberg shortline, the WA&G, reconditioned many composite boxcars for grain interchange service when they were not hauling shoe leather, and some were in traffic into the 70s. whether the fowler-like RI cars were included in that is another matter.


> Soooo, I s'pose modern modelers will not need large
> quantities of Fowler cars. Anybody know when large scale
> use of them in interchange service ended?

Specificly, Gold Coast Models (John Verser) is working on
the 1500 40' Fowler cars built for the D&RG, numbered
66000-67499. In Jan of 1953, 969 of these cars remained in
service on the D&RGW.

Very similar cars were owned by CNW, CMO, M&StL, MR, and
CRI&P. These six roads purchased a total of 15015 cars
between 1913 and 1916. These five other roads only had a
total of 181 cars still in service in 1/53.

The RF&P and CRI&P purchased an additional 2900 cars of
similar design, but with various steel ends. The latter
road still had 2526 of these newer cars running in 1/53,
and some of them were sold to various shortlines in the
Saltzberg "empire," but I have not tracked how long those
lasted.
scaro
 

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