Disapointed... (Engine failure)

Re: Disapointed... (Engine failure)

Postby ConducTTor » Sat Apr 21, 2018 10:49 pm

AstroGoat760 wrote:With Mashima no longer producing motors....


Disaster. :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry:
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Re: Disapointed... (Engine failure)

Postby ConnRiver » Sun Apr 22, 2018 8:28 am

What is it with motors? Why so difficult to obtain?

Or, maybe they're not? Some of the prices seem astronomical to me, likely the result of middlemen taking their cut?

And, perhaps, for individual projects, one or two motors aren't difficult to find. But, finding a reliable supplier appears to be impossible. Is this observation accurate?

I don't know how motors are constructed, so maybe I'm way off here. But, are rare earth magnets required for small DC motors to function, and are REMs costly and hard to acquire?

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Re: Disapointed... (Engine failure)

Postby AstroGoat760 » Sun Apr 22, 2018 1:33 pm

ConnRiver wrote:What is it with motors? Why so difficult to obtain?

Or, maybe they're not? Some of the prices seem astronomical to me, likely the result of middlemen taking their cut?

And, perhaps, for individual projects, one or two motors aren't difficult to find. But, finding a reliable supplier appears to be impossible. Is this observation accurate?

I don't know how motors are constructed, so maybe I'm way off here. But, are rare earth magnets required for small DC motors to function, and are REMs costly and hard to acquire?

Brian Chapman
Cedar Rapids, Iowa


In my case it is trying to find a reliable supplier that will not vanish overnight.
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Re: Disapointed... (Engine failure)

Postby areibel » Sun Apr 22, 2018 4:44 pm

A big problem is a lot of the motors in the sizes we need aren't individually sold for general use. If you check the manufacturer's websites they'll usually state that they make motors to customer spec so they don't have a "standard" 12mm by 30 or 32 double shaft 12 volt. Canon (the Canon EN22 is a common HO motor) does have some stock sizes of iron core motors but the size listed that we need is a 5 volt motor, you'd have to order them for a 12 volt application. They can build whatever you want!

In the old days if you needed a small motor like a DC-60 or DC-71 you made the space in your application for that stock sized motor to fit. Now you build the machine and order a motor to fit. I don't know what a minimum order would be but it's probably a shipping container load or more- probably enough to power every TT motor ever built!

That's where places like Microlocomotion that Bernd listed are valuable- they can source all sorts of oddballs and a few of them will work for us. If you want do do some digging you can check out the websites for Canon, Mabuchi and Buhler, and if you spend time on some Chinese sites like Alibaba- it takes some digging but they have several possibilities like this one-
https://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/ ... 38d0UfrtU5

This one is only a single shaft but the problem is you still have to order a quantity, even if it is relatively small. I don't know if you could get away with ordering a couple "samples" or not?
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Re: Disapointed... (Engine failure)

Postby Bernd » Mon Apr 23, 2018 8:30 am

Hi Al,

That motor you referenced is a brushless motor. Won't work in our application. Size wise it might. Sheldon at Microlocomotion can probably get you the size motor you want. I follow him on face book. He has two groups. One strictly for HO and the second for TT down to Z. I haven't personally bought any thing from him but he seems to bend over backwards for modelers looking to repower their engines.

I look through E-bay and have purchased quantities of motors. I was lucky at one point and got 6 Mashima motors for use in TT scale equipment. No, I'm not selling any of them. I have plans for them and still need more.

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Five volt motors will work if you use DCC to control your engines. NCE's DCC can be set for whatever high voltage you need. So if you have a 5 volt motor the max voltage output on the decoder would be set for 5 volts. We need to change out mindset from "only 12 volt motors will work" to "any voltage motor will work with DCC". I'm using 6 volt motors in three 2-6-0 HO steam locomotives with R/C control. I'm able to use the 12 volts at the rail. That is stepped down to six volts on board for the motor and R/C circuit.

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Re: Disapointed... (Engine failure)

Postby AstroGoat760 » Sun May 20, 2018 7:18 pm

Well, it looks like I found the solution to the engine troubles for my SWs made by MTB. Thanks everyone for the advice and help!
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Re: Disapointed... (Engine failure)

Postby krokodil » Mon May 21, 2018 2:04 am

What happened to the original motors? Is there any trouble with the brushes or with the rotor? You dismantled the motors, did you investigated the failure?
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Re: Disapointed... (Engine failure)

Postby AstroGoat760 » Mon May 21, 2018 9:46 am

krokodil wrote:What happened to the original motors? Is there any trouble with the brushes or with the rotor? You dismantled the motors, did you investigated the failure?

The original four that I bought when the SWs were made first available from SazModel (SOO 1216, N&W 2111, and a pair of undecorated units), all seem to have had issues with the brushes failing, with one example having a badly scored commutator.

I have not yet dismantled my second order of MTB SWs, (both Conrail units), but one of the replacement motors that I used ended up lasting fairly long until the shaft bearing effectively seized on it, despite frequent lubrication.
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Re: Disapointed... (Engine failure)

Postby krokodil » Mon May 21, 2018 10:45 am

Thanks

I am just asking because last week I visited one huge public layout where the trains are running daily between 10AM and 6PM 5 days a week, and the owner mentioned me his experiences. The daily distance, what the trains are making is around 2 km. Of course the locos need regular maintenance and this includes also the motors. The favorite ones, what they use, are the famous Bühler motors used in many H0 locomotives. They were trying to unify the motors on most of the locomotives ( easier and cheaper maintenance even when the mechanism needs some modification) and now they see interesting things. In some locomotives the same motor works around 1500 hours, while in a similar locomotives from different manufacturer the motor life time is reduced to few hundred hours ( down to 200). (The life time includes several replacements of the brushes and standard cleaning.). They have no answer yet, but it is really interesting for everybody, the reduced life time is definitively caused by the internal mechanism or by the construction of the drive chain.
The speed on the layout is very realistic, less than half of the maximum speed of the typical off shelf engine. Each locomotive before operation on the layout must be calibrated to the digital system to get the settings for the realistic speeds. All blocks have smooth stop and go controls.
My locomotives on my layouts are definitively not making 2 kms a day but some of them are already 50 years old and most of them have still their original Zeuke motors. More troubles I am having with the modern locomotives with tires. Those are gone sometimes almost weekly. I hate those wheels, where it is possible I replace them for the standard ones without tires.
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Re: Disapointed... (Engine failure)

Postby AstroGoat760 » Tue May 22, 2018 10:13 pm

krokodil wrote:Thanks

I am just asking because last week I visited one huge public layout where the trains are running daily between 10AM and 6PM 5 days a week, and the owner mentioned me his experiences. The daily distance, what the trains are making is around 2 km. Of course the locos need regular maintenance and this includes also the motors. The favorite ones, what they use, are the famous Bühler motors used in many H0 locomotives. They were trying to unify the motors on most of the locomotives ( easier and cheaper maintenance even when the mechanism needs some modification) and now they see interesting things. In some locomotives the same motor works around 1500 hours, while in a similar locomotives from different manufacturer the motor life time is reduced to few hundred hours ( down to 200). (The life time includes several replacements of the brushes and standard cleaning.). They have no answer yet, but it is really interesting for everybody, the reduced life time is definitively caused by the internal mechanism or by the construction of the drive chain.
The speed on the layout is very realistic, less than half of the maximum speed of the typical off shelf engine. Each locomotive before operation on the layout must be calibrated to the digital system to get the settings for the realistic speeds. All blocks have smooth stop and go controls.
My locomotives on my layouts are definitively not making 2 kms a day but some of them are already 50 years old and most of them have still their original Zeuke motors. More troubles I am having with the modern locomotives with tires. Those are gone sometimes almost weekly. I hate those wheels, where it is possible I replace them for the standard ones without tires.


I can't say that I am that big of a fan of traction tyres either, as there is little benefit for having them, compared to the maintenance headache that they can cause.
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