Around the model videos

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Around the model videos

Postby krokodil » Tue Dec 25, 2018 7:24 am

Recently I produced several model videos. ( part of them are on YouTube). The model railroaders were very happy with the results but few people from the YT viewers complained about the relatively high speed of the trains. (Probably no one of them has a layout at home..... :wtf: )
I do not know, how do you see it?
Here are just few explanations what may be the problem. ( many scenes in the recent film were slowed down electronically to get better results. https://youtu.be/T7P8N3y90u4 ).
Here is my opinion:
1. The cameras on model layouts capture usually the bigger areas ie on the monitors we see bigger part of the "miniature world" as we would see in the reality. To get so close to the objects the cameras have usualy very wide angle lenses. This cheats our sense for the size and for the distances.
2. The longitudial scale in model railroads is almost never correct, while our trains are downscaled by 1:120 the distances are far away from this reduction. ( in Europe the shortest station is about 800 m long what in TT scale would be about 6 m). In the reality even on big modular layouts the yards are almost never longer than 2-3 m, on home layout this size is reduced in TT to less than 2 m.
3. Most of the small models are running anyway faster than the scale would require. According the standards the speed can be up to 140% of the calculated model speed. This means even with carefuly driving the speed of the trains will be higher. On top of that if you try to run your trains really on scale speed the visitors will be extremely unhappy - we tried this on one big modular layout the trains were running on their calculated speed, almost every visitor complained why are they running so slow. :boohoo:
4. This speed is very critical in low speed range, when the train start to move. Most model trains starts to work smoothly above the calculated 3 km/h (2 MPH). This is too much watched over a camera. The train jumps from stop immediately to relatively high speed.
5. The electrical pick-up of the model trains is far away from perfection ie. In lower speed we often get choppy movement, what is even worse on video. In the reality very often I did not realized the motion problems, on the video I had lot of work to compensate or mask this choppy motion. Especially when the trains left the yard over many switches. Almost on every switch the locomotives were hesitating or jumping what is not very ideal on video.
6. On model videos we try to place the cameras as close as possible to the trains, to get the illusion of the real world and to show the miniature details. If you stay along the line that close to the train as on the model videos the real trains will pass by also very fast even at lower speeds. Ie our sense is quite relative.
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Re: Around the model videos

Postby krokodil » Mon Apr 15, 2019 9:29 am

Here is my refurbished camera car. Now the lights get the power from the two cell batteries instead of tracks. It is much safer and there is no possible interference with different power systems. I have a similar car also for H0 I just need to swap the camera.

IMG_3971.JPG
Camera car
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Re: Around the model videos

Postby RodTT » Mon Apr 15, 2019 4:26 pm

Hi Krokodil,
Re your first post above, what is the calculation of scale speed? I read on a forum some years back that it's not as simple as reducing the prototype speed by the amount of the scale, e.g. for TT you don't just reduce it to 1/120 of the prototype speed.
I think the same is true for time - e.g. when switching, if you "wait" to change the turnouts on your model, as some people like to do when operating, you're not going to wait the amount of time the real operator would wait (everyone would get bored to death), but you're going to wait longer than 1/120 of that time.
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Re: Around the model videos

Postby ConducTTor » Mon Apr 15, 2019 6:26 pm

Well, time is time. It has nothing to do with scale. Speed however does - so a 1/120 train would cover 1/120th the distance a 1:1 train would during the same time while going the same scale speed.


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Re: Around the model videos

Postby krokodil » Tue Apr 16, 2019 3:40 am

ConducTTor wrote:Well, time is time. It has nothing to do with scale. Speed however does - so a 1/120 train would cover 1/120th the distance a 1:1 train would during the same time while going the same scale speed.



Yes, it would be when the longitudional distances in model would be the scale distances. In the reality they are not. Just an example a shortest station length in Europe was for long time about 800 m, what is in TT scale about 6,5 m. 6,5x120=780 m. Who has a space for 6,5 m long station ( the smallest one)? And this is the first question - how to deal with this reduction. We can recalculate the model speed to 1:120, but the distance what the train will make in unity time window will be often 1000x bigger as in the reality because the track is shorter. There we need to find a compromise. In the past it was a recommended practice to reduce the longitudional distances for TT in scale 1:1000. this caused a new problem when the real scale models appeared ( no length reduction on long coaches) the platforms on station in scale 1:1000 became too short.
Unfortunately the videos emphasis very much these facts and this gives an unrealistic motion on TV screen.
Additionally specially the older models have not very smooth running performance, so many modelers tend to run their models faster as in the reality would be. This is also a challenge in videos. Look at my latest video from Madrid. There is a historical Märklin layout(3 rail AC system). Those locomotives cannot run slow, for error free performance on public layout you have to run them on high speed.
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Re: Around the model videos

Postby ConducTTor » Tue Apr 16, 2019 8:30 am

But none of these things have anything to do with time itself. Again, time doesn't get scaled. These are physical space problems. The fact that you don't have the physical space to put a scale 100 miles between stations has nothing to do with time.

If anyone has figured out how to scale time, please report your findings to the world as this would be the greatest achievement possible ;)


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Re: Around the model videos

Postby krokodil » Tue Apr 16, 2019 8:42 am

Some more words to this theme.

That is correct we cannot change the time, but on the videos you are sitting in "real train" and we try to get closer to the real impressions or expectations. On the video you will immediately say the train is running to fast, as an engineer of the model train you will have the impression that the speed is corresponding to the layout.
Or an anither example. If you are in airplane in 10000 m altitude, look down a follow the trains. They are almost not moving ( even the fastest ones)! That would be the correct motion also on model layouts.

Everybody from us, who travelled by train knows that to leave a simple stations even with the modern supertrains takes 1-5 minutes. If we want keep this time than also our model trains should move correspondingly and leave the station in 1-5 minutes. Such a video will be very boring ( I made one in slow motion, nobody was really happy. :sick: ). In the model videos our internal time calculation ( in our brain) depends on the changing scenes, and because of the distances on the models are far away from the scale distances we will even at correct scale speed get the impression our train is too fast. In the reality for eg. Two stations are almost never closer than 5-10 minutes ride. What shall be a time when the model train makes this distance when in reality the two stations are let us say 5 m apart? (In TT scale it would be just 5x120=600 m).
This means we need to speed up the model time. In many module meetings they decide depending on the size of the layout the model time eg. 24 hours=1 hour on the layout. This time compression at least gives some realistic operation. This means the TT trains are running 5 times faster than the real ones. The question is always can the engineer control his train according to this speed? I saw on some module meetings already some markers what the train should pass in given time ( in 10 sec), just to give the engineer a reference for the model speed. It is a funny thing and is quite difficult to control during the video sessions, ( easy to complain or comment :grin: ). The cameraman usually has no control over the speed of the trains.
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Re: Around the model videos126c3

Postby Rich1853 » Mon Apr 22, 2019 7:41 pm

Speaking about time, here's a story about timekeeping.
https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_ ... 1075745364
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Re: Around the model videos

Postby j p » Mon May 20, 2019 5:02 pm

krokodil wrote:Yes, it would be when the longitudional distances in model would be the scale distances. In the reality they are not. Just an example a shortest station length in Europe was for long time about 800 m,


I know many stations much shorter than that. Or is it just one extra zero in your post by an error?
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