50 foot boxcar

Re: 50 foot boxcar

Postby gerhard_k » Wed Apr 29, 2015 5:37 pm

j p wrote:I can measure many trucks, incl. some of unknown origin. The relevant measures for the standard would be "Bc", center bolster bearing above top of the rail and "E" truck bolster hole. Anything else?

I can measure:
MTB Barber S2
GoldCoast ASF Ride Control
(I know that the E value is not according to the standard because I have to increase the diameter of the hole for each of the Joma cars)
Art&Detail ASF roller bearing 70 tons
Peresvet Archbar
PVM Roller Bearing (I am not sure if those were made by PVM, but they came with the kits)
PVM Bettendorf (I am not sure if those were made by PVM, but they came with the kits)
Kemtron Bettendorf (brass)
Joma (brass), probably Bettendorf too
2-3 other types of cast trucks of unknown origin
brass tender/caboose archbar trucks with leaf springs (possibly regauged from H0n3)
brass trucks with functional springs - Bc would be tricky with those because it depends on the load...

H.P. Products stamped trucks can be measured too, but those are obviously not according to the standard, they were manufactured before the standard was introduced.
Tillig does not make any trucks relevant for NA-TT.

@ j_p:
That is quite a list! It would be interesting, just for data going forward, to have these measurements, also any notes about other features (grooves, ridges) that might interfere with a straightforward mounting. It should certainly help modelers in considering the possibilities of truck replacements. I think many of us would be grateful to you for an effort in making these measurements known. Even for HP trucks and Tillig, to have the data, just for completeness. :thumbup:
j p wrote: brass trucks with functional springs - Bc would be tricky with those because it depends on the load...

I think the general experience is that truck springs are typically too stiff to uniformly deflect from the weight of the carbody (except maybe for over-weight brass cars?), they merely allow some angular compliance to adjust for track irregularities.
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Re: 50 foot boxcar

Postby gerhard_k » Wed Apr 29, 2015 5:54 pm

rdikken wrote:The SP B-50-30, first picture below.

It is 50 feet boxcar, 10 ft, 6 inches high, with a improved 3/4 dreadnought end, a diagonal panel roof with a apex steel roof walk. The sides have 8 feet youngstown doors, with 6 side panels besites the door and with a double row of rivets.

I am allowed to make 2 versions, meaning a 50 foot boxcar with a 8 feet door and a car with a double door, such as perhaps the plugin and the yougstown door. But it could also be a 50 feet boxcar and a 40 feet boxcar.

Since there are no other 50-foot boxcars available, having a second 50-foot version (I LOVE the combo-door car in your third attachment) is, to me, preferable to having a 40-foot car derived from this one - not that we have a surplus of 40-foot choices in TT... :whistle:
But can someone tell me what the functional advantage is of the plug-door-and-sliding-door combo over a 2-sliding-doors version (in your 4th attachment)? It seems the latter would be an easier construction (in full scale).
rdikken wrote:I am allowed to make 2 versions

Uh-oh - I think my order just got bigger :doh:
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Re: 50 foot boxcar

Postby Tom Dempsey » Wed Apr 29, 2015 7:53 pm

Gerhard, If you need a large door opening, you can open both the sliding door and the plug door. If you are using the boxcar as a regular door opening size car, the plug door remains tight and can act as a piece of the side bulkhead.

Rob, If you use an SP design to do non-SP cars, what you will have is an incorrect model. How incorrect the car is will depend on how far afield you go. If you have Thompson's book, you should be able to find two different SP 50 ft cars in there that can be modeled in the same run with only minor differences.
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Re: 50 foot boxcar

Postby rdikken » Thu Apr 30, 2015 8:28 am

@Tom
The problem is Tom, if I limit myself to only one railroad company, I will miss all the customers seeking another. The GC line should be an example here and it did run for more then 10 years. Ten years the same railroad company would also be a bit boring. If you do a high investment the chances of selling should be as large as possible with a minimum of costs.

That means I am looking for 15 a 20 versions, let's say 8 a 9 railroad companies per type of boxcar.

Ciao,
Rob
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Re: 50 foot boxcar

Postby j p » Thu Apr 30, 2015 12:33 pm

rdikken wrote:@Tom
The problem is Tom, if I limit myself to only one railroad company, I will miss all the customers seeking another. The GC line should be an example here and it did run for more then 10 years. Ten years the same railroad company would also be a bit boring. If you do a high investment the chances of selling should be as large as possible with a minimum of costs.

That means I am looking for 15 a 20 versions, let's say 8 a 9 railroad companies per type of boxcar.

Ciao,
Rob


Then I am not sure if a car manufactured by shops of one railroad company would be the best prototype...?
How about a 50' boxcar made by Pullman, ACF or some other car builder instead?
50' PS-1 or 50' AAR car would be better for me. I understand that people interested in SP would prefer their specific SP car. Perhaps they can get it later or they can kitbash it?
I like the SP car. I just think that a car suitable for 8, 9 or more railroads would be better to start with.
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Re: 50 foot boxcar

Postby Tom Dempsey » Thu Apr 30, 2015 12:47 pm

Rob, maybe things are different in Europe. Each American railroad had it's own mechanical department which designed cars, then the cars were built, to spec, by the car manufacturers. So just slapping another railroad's paint scheme on a car won't make it a model of a different car. Thirty years or more ago, that was the norm, however, a significant number of North American rail modeler's have become much more cognisant of these minor differences. There is also a loud and vociferous online presence which will lambast a correctly painted, incorrectly modeled car, in any scale. This is for you too Alex, 'cause I hear it coming. If the concept is to convert folks from N/HO to TT modelers, you need to at least match the current offerings of your competitors in this market! I hear a lot about Gold Coast, they worked at it very hard for a lot of years, how many folks were converted? When the time came to sell, how many North American companies bid on the company. The Versa's had already sold their part of a company they helped to build, and it's become one of North America's biggest model train manufacturing/direct sales combines, so they knew what they were doing, at least to some extent. If you just want to put out paint schemes on wheels, why not just build a generic 50 ft box and then you only need one set of molds and someone to mind the pad printer every 5000 rotations. Heck, it worked great for Irv Athearn, worked just as good for Model Power, and Roundhouse. Maybe we should get them to make TT Scale! Oh yea, even they don't build models that way any more, could be a reason.
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Re: 50 foot boxcar

Postby ConducTTor » Thu Apr 30, 2015 1:08 pm

Tom Dempsey wrote:This is for you too Alex, 'cause I hear it coming.


I never said "let's make foobies". Feel free to quote/correct me.

As a matter of fact I've always said any product should be made as prototypically close as possible.
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Re: 50 foot boxcar

Postby rdikken » Thu Apr 30, 2015 1:21 pm

I will give this weekend a few examples from cars I think they are the same. If they are not, please point out the differences. If really every rail road company makes his own version, sounds familiar, than it could be a problem.

I think working with some examples, will give an idea what the differences are.

Ciao,
Rob
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Re: 50 foot boxcar

Postby Richard-B » Thu Apr 30, 2015 1:44 pm

Well... I've stayed out of this so far; But here goes:

The Pullman-Standard 50ft "PS-1" variants are arguably the one of the MOST recognizable type of cars ever built, due to the distinctive proprietary PS car ends. Over 23,000 cars were produced to this design family, in the years 1954 to 1960 (approx.).

Railroads which ordered cars new included at least 38 major lines: A&WP, ACY, ATSF, BM, C&EI, C&O, CG, CIL, CNW, CRR, D&H, D&RGW, DSS&A, DT&I, ERIE, G&F, GM&O, KCS, L&N, M&STL, MILW, MKT, MP, N&W, NH, RF&P, RI, SAL, SL-SF (Frisco), SN , Southern, SP, SSW, TS, UP, WM, WofA, WP, and private owners MODX, NRBX, USNX.

This sounds GREAT... until you start asking about the major car variants:
  1. Riveted or Welded sides?
  2. Single Door?
    2a) Single Door width? (7-7, 8, 8-7, 9, 10..?)
    2b) Single Door type? (YSD -several types, Superior, Flush?)
  3. Double Door?
    3a) Double Door Width? (9, 12, 15, 16...?)
    3b) Double Door Type? YSD (6+6, 7+8, 7-6+7-6, 8+8, Superior (3+6, 7+8, 7-6+7-6...?)
  4. Side Panels? (different options for each door size (can't just swap doors) and some had ACR (alternate center rivets)?)
  5. Sill profile? (5 basic types with some contour options...?)
  6. Brake gear? (7 different manufacturers...?)
  7. Roof walks? (rectangular - 4 types, or perforated?)
PS obviously was prescient about the Burger King advertising slogan: "Have it your way..."

That said... there are some configurations bought in larger volume; A look at the Kadee archive http://www.kadee.com/ca/50ps1/50ps1b.htm is useful for seeing similar variations.
For potential TT-scale models, this would mean compromises on 'close but not exact' for some prototypes...

NB: The -only- PS-1 cars on the SP were Class B-50-37... an order shared with the C&O.
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Re: 50 foot boxcar

Postby j p » Thu Apr 30, 2015 2:15 pm

Tom, yes and no about the "generic car".
It is not much more work to make the "generic" car correct for some roads. Then foobie or stand-in paint schemes can be added if there is a market for them (as it was with GoldCoast cars). Making a generic car which is not correct for anything is not worth the efforts.
I am not quite sure about the mechanical departments. Big roads as SP or Pennsy yes. Many small roads used "standard" cars. They probably specified standard cars made of standard components but would they really make drawings of everything and then ask the car builder to make it? That would have been too expensive for them.

Richard: That is very good for a start. If SP is "must have", C&O would be an obvious 2nd candidate. I'd expect cars from a shared order to be the same.
Many railroads had more than one variant of PS-1.
How about doing the same as the car builder? Offer options. I understood Rob's post in that way.
It is not an easy task and it needs expert's help. How about this way:
1. select one car variant, preferably a car which was used by several railroads
2. select another car variant, different from the 1st one, also used by several railroads
3. take the parts of car 1 and car 2 and try to combine them into additional variants, e.g. what can be built out of those 2 different roofs, 2 different roofwalks, 2 different sides, 2 different ends...? Brake wheels are not expensive, I'd go for more than 2 types.
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